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To the people here who live under socialism...; and think it is good or great....
Topic Started: Oct 27 2008, 11:57 PM (1,464 Views)
whitestar
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Dwayne
Oct 31 2008, 10:56 PM
those derided as socialist often do want to nationalize aspects of industry, particularly the medical field.

And in that instance it is very legitimate to deride them is socialist.
In my opinion the govt has certain basic obligations...
To provide law and order... in the form of security forces such as police departments... you would not contemplate that being in the hands of private business...
Access to education for all... those that are run privately ARE not within reach to ALL
National Security... could you contemplate a free enterpise armed forces? of course not.
The free access to medical attention if and when needed is in my opinion a basic right of ALL regardless of their financial standing... that is not socialism but basic human (or more appropriately "civil") rights
Edited by whitestar, Oct 31 2008, 11:51 PM.
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
whitestar
Oct 31 2008, 11:30 PM
Dwayne
Oct 31 2008, 10:56 PM
those derided as socialist often do want to nationalize aspects of industry, particularly the medical field.

And in that instance it is very legitimate to deride them is socialist.
In my opinion the govt has certain basic obligations...
To provide law and order... in the form of security forces such as police departments... you would not contemplate that being in the hands of private business...
Access to education for all... those that are run privately ARE out of reach to ALL
National Security... could you contemplate a free enterpise armed forces? of course not.
The free access to medical attention if and when needed is in my opinion a basic right of ALL regardless of their financial standing... that is not socialism but basic human rights
I agree that universial high quality health care (this includes affordable pharmaceutical products for all who require them) are basic human rights and are not just a privilage for those who have money or who can afford to pay for private health insurance.

I would extend this to include free publically funded tertiary education based on MERIT for all , and including postgraduate degree programs. HECS sucks !!! Luckily my grant also pays my uni fees and HECS.
Edited by somerled, Oct 31 2008, 11:47 PM.
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RTW
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whitestar
Oct 31 2008, 11:30 PM
In my opinion the govt has certain basic obligations...
To provide law and order... in the form of security forces such as police departments... you would not contemplate that being in the hands of private business...
Access to education for all... those that are run privately ARE not within reach to ALL
National Security... could you contemplate a free enterpise armed forces? of course not.
The free access to medical attention if and when needed is in my opinion a basic right of ALL regardless of their financial standing...
Law and order, basic education, national security - check, check, check. That's how it is in the USA.

Our "free access to medical attention" needs some work. People who use the emergency room for colds and bandaids are forcing many to close. We tend to take advantage of free things here - which nicely segues into our problems with public "education".

Focus on core subjects, such as reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic, is being diminished in favor of political correctness, multiculturalism, etc. Nationwide 45% of public school teachers, who most believe are woefully underpaid, send their own children to private schools. They supposedly can't afford to this but they find ways. It's like going to a Ford dealership and seeing the employee parking lot full of Chevrolets. Public schools should educate children to the same standards as private schools. Instead we get feel good legislation such as "leave no child behind", which can be summarized "hold them all back to the level of the lowest achiever".


No matter how low we set expectations there will be those who fall short. Go out and find the most undependable person in the country and set the bar below his current capability ... and he will lower his capability to miss the mark. Some blame the "entitlement mentality" that we've allegedly fostered over many generation.
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whitestar
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RTW
Nov 1 2008, 12:35 AM
Law and order, basic education, national security - check, check, check. That's how it is in the USA.

Our "free access to medical attention" needs some work. People who use the emergency room for colds and bandaids are forcing many to close. We tend to take advantage of free things here - which nicely segues into our problems with public "education".

Focus on core subjects, such as reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic, is being diminished in favor of political correctness, multiculturalism, etc. Nationwide 45% of public school teachers, who most believe are woefully underpaid, send their own children to private schools. They supposedly can't afford to this but they find ways. It's like going to a Ford dealership and seeing the employee parking lot full of Chevrolets. Public schools should educate children to the same standards as private schools. Instead we get feel good legislation such as "leave no child behind", which can be summarized "hold them all back to the level of the lowest achiever".


No matter how low we set expectations there will be those who fall short. Go out and find the most undependable person in the country and set the bar below his current capability ... and he will lower his capability to miss the mark. Some blame the "entitlement mentality" that we've allegedly fostered over many generation.
"Law and order, basic education, national security - check, check, check. That's how it is in the USA."
Of course it is, thats just my point. All those tax payed services provided but that does not label your nation socialistic, nor does it mine when we consider medical care a part of those basic obligations.
I agree with most of what you have stated RTW, we are suffering the same problems with education, the mayority of high school graduates have poor math, spelling and grammer abilities compared to previous generations. The education system has lost the plot and needs to return to the basics of the three "R's" you mentioned. We are attempting to address that problem.
The same with casualty departments, overwhelmed because the local GP's and specialists are now charging more than the govt rebate. But you do not throw the baby out with the bath water, you solve the problem (easier said than done), thats what the human race does best.. problem solving.. you don't just throw your hands up in the air and walk away from it.
I believe we have certain rights and if a govt can't provide em then sack em.. move on to the next untill it is done right
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
whitestar
Nov 1 2008, 01:50 AM
RTW
Nov 1 2008, 12:35 AM
Law and order, basic education, national security - check, check, check. That's how it is in the USA.

Our "free access to medical attention" needs some work. People who use the emergency room for colds and bandaids are forcing many to close. We tend to take advantage of free things here - which nicely segues into our problems with public "education".

Focus on core subjects, such as reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic, is being diminished in favor of political correctness, multiculturalism, etc. Nationwide 45% of public school teachers, who most believe are woefully underpaid, send their own children to private schools. They supposedly can't afford to this but they find ways. It's like going to a Ford dealership and seeing the employee parking lot full of Chevrolets. Public schools should educate children to the same standards as private schools. Instead we get feel good legislation such as "leave no child behind", which can be summarized "hold them all back to the level of the lowest achiever".


No matter how low we set expectations there will be those who fall short. Go out and find the most undependable person in the country and set the bar below his current capability ... and he will lower his capability to miss the mark. Some blame the "entitlement mentality" that we've allegedly fostered over many generation.
"Law and order, basic education, national security - check, check, check. That's how it is in the USA."
Of course it is, thats just my point. All those tax payed services provided but that does not label your nation socialistic, nor does it mine when we consider medical care a part of those basic obligations.
I agree with most of what you have stated RTW, we are suffering the same problems with education, the mayority of high school graduates have poor math, spelling and grammer abilities compared to previous generations. The education system has lost the plot and needs to return to the basics of the three "R's" you mentioned. We are attempting to address that problem.
The same with casualty departments, overwhelmed because the local GP's and specialists are now charging more than the govt rebate. But you do not throw the baby out with the bath water, you solve the problem (easier said than done), thats what the human race does best.. problem solving.. you don't just throw your hands up in the air and walk away from it.
I believe we have certain rights and if a govt can't provide em then sack em.. move on to the next untill it is done right
I am totally opposed to private schools getting public funding. It's the parent's right to choose private education , if they do , then since it is private , they pay for everything and should not recieve public subsidisation at the cost of public schools and kids in the public system doing without (often even basic requirements).

The money spent subsidizing private schools would be better spent improving public schools and public education.

Similarly the nonsense of government subsidisation of private hospitals and private health insurance companies (through that 30% to people who stay in with or take up private health funds is plane and outright corporate social security and wrong .)
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whitestar
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I agree Somerled, the Howard govt was trying to privatize the education system by proxy.. and the health care system... that is one of the reasons he is now a "former" prime minister... the people have spoken and that is his fate
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somerled
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Admiral MacDonald RN
whitestar
Nov 1 2008, 02:29 AM
I agree Somerled, the Howard govt was trying to privatize the education system by proxy.. and the health care system... that is one of the reasons he is now a "former" prime minister... the people have spoken and that is his fate
Yes and his politics of fear and division and his stupid involvement of Australia in Iraq.

Mmmm .... sounds a lot like the USA presidential campaign of McCain Co.Pty.Ltd.
Edited by somerled, Nov 1 2008, 02:55 AM.
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ds9074
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RTW
Oct 31 2008, 11:08 PM
ds9074
Oct 30 2008, 01:21 PM
I also think that inheritence tax is fair in many ways as the money raised can be used to give all children a good start rather than...
Ideal world vs real world. Government is an extremely inefficient charity. The pittance that does make it through the bureacracy has so many strings attached that it holds people back more than it helps them get ahead.

One REALITY is, assets are taxed. You work all your life to build a business and when you die your heirs are forced to sell it to pay the tax on it. It's theft.

This happened to Joe Robbie. He owned a football team and he owned the stadium they played in. The taxes were near a $100,000,000. His heirs didn't have that kind of liquid assets so they had to be sold.

The inheritance is currently VERY low. If no legislative action is taken it'll jump back to 50% on January 1, 20XX. How many elderly people will ponder suicide on December 31?
The oddities of the US tax code aside, I agree with the system where you can choose to leave you inheritence to charity and avoid the tax that way. That is how it works in the UK. I also agree with a reasonably substantial inheritence (and capital gains) allowance. The state doesnt need to tax very small inherited amounts or small gifts. I am talking about taxing large transfers of wealth to a person or people for their private gain who have not earned it.
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whitestar
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An inheritance tax is a govt grab at wealth they have already taxed. The people who have built that wealth have paid their fair share of tax throughout their life, passing on the fruits of their labour to loved ones. God damn govts, they'll tax the air you breath if you let em. The British here may remember the proposed tax on how many people live in a home..Poll tax.. crazy. Almost as crazy as a tax on owning a TV. Yea, I know the BBC is the result but who knows what may have happened in it's place?
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
^^^ I really like some of your view on inheritance taxes, but what are your views on taxes of imputed incomes?
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RTW
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whitestar
Nov 1 2008, 06:57 AM
An inheritance tax is a govt grab at wealth they have already taxed.
You can say that again.
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RTW
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whitestar
Nov 1 2008, 06:57 AM
An inheritance tax is a govt grab at wealth they have already taxed.
Ya know, the truth just never gets old. ;)
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ds9074
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whitestar
Nov 1 2008, 06:57 AM
An inheritance tax is a govt grab at wealth they have already taxed.
Well again this depends on whether you see it as a tax on the dead persons estate or a tax on the person inheriting the estate.

Additionally even if you do see it as a tax on wealth that has already been taxed that is arguably true of many if not most taxes. I dont find it a particularly compelling argument for the removal of a tax.
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whitestar
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Will have to agree to disagree on this one Ds9074.. whats your view on the Poll tax you nearly had? and a licence for a TV?
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whitestar
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Dwayne
Nov 1 2008, 08:09 AM
^^^ I really like some of your view on inheritance taxes, but what are your views on taxes of imputed incomes?
To be honest I had never heard of it untill today, I have since looked it up and surprise, surprise, another way for a govt to put their hand in yer pocket.. it's criminal, with bureaucratic logic thrown in to justify it.
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