Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Joe the Plumber?; Not a plumber. And not even called Joe
Topic Started: Oct 17 2008, 06:00 AM (2,534 Views)
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Admiralbill_gomec
Oct 20 2008, 02:07 PM
Minuet
Oct 20 2008, 01:54 PM
What have you seen? I keep asking for specifics and all I get in response is "Believe me I know".

Not good enough. I am willing to look at real evidence. But I have dealt with some of you long enough to know that the perception of people on either the right or the left doesn't always match reality.

Don't give me your perception. Give me facts. And try to open your own mind to some facts too. I direct you once again to the link I provided with the article about Sarah Palin. It is irrefutable proof that Republicans speak from the pulpit without recourse.
I saw the link. So what. She did it too. That DOES NOT mean that Republicans "preach from the pulpit" more than Democrats do.
:headscratch:

Here we go again. Did I say that Republicans do it more?

NO!

Try to keep up with the discussion. The premise was put forth that DEMOCRATS do it more. I have asked for proof. Don't try to sidetrack this by making comments that make it seem that I said something I did not.

It just comes off as a petty ploy to deflect the fact that you are unable to support your own premise.
Offline | Profile ^
 
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Admiralbill_gomec
Oct 20 2008, 01:38 PM
ImpulseEngine
Oct 20 2008, 11:35 AM
Admiralbill_gomec
Oct 19 2008, 09:29 AM
ImpulseEngine
Oct 18 2008, 11:15 PM
And, if you're wondering why I keep putting "Joe" in quotes, it's because his name is really Samuel (and I'm aware that his middle name is Joseph). There have been all kinds of fabrications with this guy, but McCain just jumped right on his bandwagon. I wonder if McCain plans to do such poor background research before he jumps on other bandwagons if he becomes President.
Isn't that just a bit petty?

After all, William is my middle name, but you've never typed my name as "Bill" before, now have you? You've heard of nicknames before, haven't you?

This sounds like, and I'm sorry to say this, you using the DNC talking points.

How convenient that you completely ignored the context in which I mentioned the name issue. Please see what I just wrote toward the bottom of my reply to Wichita. The guy apparently lies and, as such, I question the use of "Joe" when his name is "Samuel". Sure, it could be a nickname, and in the absence of anything else I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it. But it certainly isn't in the absence of anything else.
Wow, nice tapdance.
Wow, nice jeté.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Win or lose, the left has opened a can of worms.

Quote:
 
John McCain and an Army of Joes
The real anger at McCain’s rallies.

By Byron York

Woodbridge, Va. — Tito Munoz was ready to rock when John McCain showed here up at the Connaughton Community Plaza in Woodbridge, Virginia Saturday afternoon. Dressed in a yellow hard hat covered with McCain-Palin stickers, wearing an orange high-visibility vest, Munoz carried a hand-lettered sign that said CONSTRUCTION WORKER FOR McCAIN. He got a coveted spot in the bleachers directly behind McCain, where he could be seen in the camera shot along with the guy holding the sign that said PHIL THE BRICK LAYER and the woman with the ROSE THE TEACHER banner. He cheered a lot.

Posted Image

Munoz and the others cheering.
AP

Everybody was playing on the Joe-the-Plumber theme. McCain spent a lot of time on it in his stump speech, using the now-famous Joe Wurzelbacher of Toledo, Ohio, as a stand-in for “small businessmen and women all over America [who] want to keep their earnings and not give it to the government.” McCain added that Obama’s response to Wurzelbacher — the assertion that it would be best to “spread the wealth around” — made Joe the Plumber “the only person to get a real answer out of Sen. Obama.”


The crowd laughed and cheered. But for them, Joe the Plumber is much more than a zinger in McCain’s stump speech. In recent days, the Joe the Plumber phenomenon has taken on a deeper meaning for McCain’s audiences, for two reasons. First, he is a symbol of their belief that Barack Obama is going to raise their taxes, regardless of what Obama says about hitting up only those taxpayers who make more than $250,000 a year. They know Wurzelbacher doesn’t make that much, and they know they don’t make that much. And they’re not suspicious because they believe that someday they will make $250,000, and thus face higher taxes. No, they just don’t believe Obama right now. If he’s elected, they say, he’ll eventually come looking for taxpayers who make well below a quarter-million dollars, and that will include them.

The second reason Joe the Plumber resonates with the crowds is what his experience says about the media. Everybody here seems acutely aware of the once-over Wurzelbacher received from the press after his chance encounter with Obama was reported, first on Fox News, and then mentioned by McCain at last week’s presidential debate. Wurzelbacher found himself splashed across newspapers and cable shows, many of which reported that he didn’t have a plumber’s license, that he wasn’t a member of the plumbers’ union, that he had a lien against him for $1,182 in state taxes, and that he failed to comprehend what many commentators apparently felt was the indisputable fact that Barack Obama would lower his taxes, not raise them. As the people here in Woodbridge saw it, Joe was a guy who asked Barack Obama an inconvenient question — and for his troubles suddenly found himself under investigation by the media.

In the audience Saturday, there were plenty of people who were mad about it. There was real anger at this rally, but it wasn’t, as some erroneous press reports from other McCain rallies have suggested, aimed at Obama. It was aimed at the press. And that’s where Tito Munoz came in.



After McCain left, as the crowd filed out, Munoz made his way to an area near some loudspeakers. He attracted a few reporters when he started talking loudly, in heavily-accented English, about media mistreatment of Wurzelbacher. (It was clear that Spanish was Munoz’s native language, and he later told me he was born in Colombia.) When I first made my way over to him, Munoz thought I was there to give him the third degree.

“Are you going to check my license, too?” he asked me. “Are you going to check my immigration status? I’m ready, I have everything here. Whatever you want, I have it. I have my green card, I have my passport — “

I was a little surprised. Did Munoz really bring his papers with him to a McCain rally? I asked.

“Yeah, I have my papers right here,” he said. “I’m an American citizen. Right here, right here.” With that, he produced a U.S. passport, turned it to the page with his picture on it, and thrust it about an inch from my nose. “Right here,” he said. “In your face.”

Posted Image
Photo by Damien LeVeck

Munoz said he owned a small construction business. “I have a license, if you guys want to check,” he said.

Someone asked why Munoz had come to the rally. “I support McCain, but I’ve come to face you guys because I’m disgusted with you guys,” he said. “Why the hell are you going after Joe the Plumber? Joe the Plumber has an idea. He has a future. He wants to be something else. Why is that wrong? Everything is possible in America. I made it. Joe the Plumber could make it even better than me. . . . I was born in Colombia, but I was made in the U.S.A.”


Posted Image
The Corn confrontation.
Photo by Andrew Coyne

The scene turned into a mini-fracas when David Corn, of Mother Jones, defended press coverage. Munoz was having none of it. Why, he asked, would the press whack Joe the Plumber when it didn’t want to report on Obama’s relationship with William Ayers, the former Weather Underground bomber? “How come that’s not in the news all the time?” Munoz said. “How come Joe the Plumber is every second? I’m talking about NBC, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN.”A black woman with a strong Caribbean accent jumped in the fray. “Tell me,” she said to Corn, “why is it you can go and find out about Joe the Plumber’s tax lien and when he divorced his wife and you can’t tell me when Barack Obama met with William Ayers? Why? Why could you not tell us that? Joe the Plumber is me!”

“I am Joe the Plumber!” Munoz chimed in. “You’re attacking me.”

“Wait a second,” Corn said. “Do you pay your taxes?”

“Yes, I pay my taxes,” the woman said.

“Then you’re better than Joe the Plumber,” Corn said.

That set off a general free-for-all. “I’m going to tell you something,” Munoz yelled at Corn. “I’m better than Obama. Why? Because I’m not associated with terrorists!”

And so it went. I walked away for a few minutes to strike up a conversation with the woman who had jumped into the debate. Her name was Connie, and she said she had been born and raised in Antigua, in the West Indies. “I immigrated to the United States over 20 years ago,” she told me. “It’s my home. America has become my home. I came here freely of my own free will because I loved it, and I loved what it had to offer, and I don’t want to see it ruined.”

I asked her whether it was difficult, as a black person, to support McCain at a time when probably 90 to 95 percent of black voters support Obama. “I have always been a conservative,” she told me. “I’m mad. I was extremely upset to see the way the media went after Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. . . . To see the drive-by media and the Obama campaign attack two ordinary Americans simply because one of them managed to get Barack Obama to tell the truth, it was shameful and disgraceful.”

Meanwhile, the great debate was continuing, with Tito the Construction Worker and David the Journalist trading points. Much of it wasn’t terribly informative, but there was one lovely moment when a shouting match turned into a lesson on the fundamental meaning of American constitutional rights — and the immigrant was the teacher.

“Let me talk,” Munoz said to Corn. “I know the Constitution, and I know my First Amendment — ”

“I’m not the state,” Corn said. “I can’t take that right away from you.”

“No, no,” Munoz shot back. “Even the state, the state cannot take that right away.”

“Right, right,” Corn quickly agreed.

“Nobody can take that away,” Munoz said.

And indeed they can’t.



Byron York, NR’s White House correspondent, is the author of the book The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy: The Untold Story of How Democratic Operatives, Eccentric Billionaires, Liberal Activists, and Assorted Celebrities Tried to Bring Down a President — and Why They’ll Try Even Harder Next Time.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWRhZDE1ODdiYzRiMzcyMWM5NzNjMWMxMDQ1ZDRkYzI=&w=MA==
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 20 2008, 04:01 PM.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Wichita
Member Avatar
The Adminstrator wRench
ImpulseEngine
Oct 20 2008, 11:32 AM
Quote:
 
ImpulseEngine
 
I know what the address is right down to the house number.


If you don't believe that Joe lives in the neighborhood, what address are you referring to? The video doesn't establish a specific house where the interview took place. In fact, to me it looks like it took place literally in the street.
I thought you said you didn't want that posted here. The interview looks like it's in the street to me too. I was talking about where Joe supposedly lives, not where the interview took place. I'm not sure what your point is here.

Impulse Engine,

You are right - I stated that question badly.

What I meant was to ask if you know the address of where the conversation took place, where the tax lien was, or something similiar.

No, I don't want the address posted.

Also, I have never blamed Obama for this witch hunt. I have stated as much before in this thread, but someone else has decided that they know what I "really" meant and keeps stating the opposite regardless of what I say.

I don't think that either Obama or McCain should be blamed for this scrutiny.

I believe the media have taken on themselves the role of protector of Obama. I don't think that he is discouraging that action because it is so blatantly in his favor and I don't really blame him for that. Why invite the media to investigate your donors named "ddhhhdss" or "l;glooos" or the illegal foreign donations you've received when they are happy just investigating why Palin has a tanning bed in the governor's mansion and that Cindy McCain may have felt uncomfortable with other Congressional wives. :angel:

BTW, I did read your whole piece. I just don't have a lot of time at the moment.

I personally think that the guide of preponderance of evidence is a fair standard in this case and, since I broke my own rule and looked up his address, I believe that he does live on the street.

I think you are going for beyond a shadow of a doubt rule of evidence in your objections.

And I really don't see the complaint that his use of his middle name somehow calls his credibility into question.

All that, and five dollars, will get you an expensive cup of coffee. :yes:

Offline | Profile ^
 
whitestar
Member Avatar
Captain
Admiralbill_gomec
Oct 20 2008, 11:08 AM
Here's something that could happen when you "spread the wealth around."

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1260755-p2.html

Or maybe something like this could happen
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html
Offline | Profile ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita
Oct 17 2008, 06:13 AM
Is this what we can look forward to under an Obama adminsitration? Dare to ask him a question and your entire life story is fair game as if you were a public official.




Wichita,

This is a statement you made on the first page of this thread.

If you are blaming the press and not Obama then why make a statement about an Obama administration specifically? If the press is to blame then expect the same no matter who the administration is.
Offline | Profile ^
 
ImpulseEngine
Admiral
Wichita
Oct 21 2008, 05:29 AM
What I meant was to ask if you know the address of where the conversation took place, where the tax lien was, or something similiar.

No, I don't want the address posted.
The address that I previously stated I know right down to the house number is the one where Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher lives and it's on the street where Obama was campaigning.

Quote:
 
Also, I have never blamed Obama for this witch hunt. I have stated as much before in this thread, but someone else has decided that they know what I "really" meant and keeps stating the opposite regardless of what I say.

I don't think that either Obama or McCain should be blamed for this scrutiny.

I believe the media have taken on themselves the role of protector of Obama. I don't think that he is discouraging that action because it is so blatantly in his favor and I don't really blame him for that. Why invite the media to investigate your donors named "ddhhhdss" or "l;glooos" or the illegal foreign donations you've received when they are happy just investigating why Palin has a tanning bed in the governor's mansion and that Cindy McCain may have felt uncomfortable with other Congressional wives. :angel:
Ok, I'll take you at your word. However, my point wasn't just about whether Obama gets the blame, but also about why the scrutiny started. I don't believe it started simply because of the conversation between Obama and Joe. It started because that conversation was made into a bigger deal in the 3rd debate. That then caused the media to pick up on it. This is in reply to something you said earlier along the lines of whether everyone who speaks to Obama is going to get scrutinized.

Quote:
 
BTW, I did read your whole piece. I just don't have a lot of time at the moment.

I personally think that the guide of preponderance of evidence is a fair standard in this case and, since I broke my own rule and looked up his address, I believe that he does live on the street.

I think you are going for beyond a shadow of a doubt rule of evidence in your objections.

And I really don't see the complaint that his use of his middle name somehow calls his credibility into question.
I very well may be making a bigger deal than it is, but with some of the things that have been pulled in past campaigns I now must ask the questions.

Offline | Profile ^
 
Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Great video of the affore mentioned McCain rally where David Corn got a mouthfull from some McCain supports who take isse with the treatment of Joe the Plumber.
Offline | Profile ^
 
RTW
Member Avatar
Vice Admiral
whitestar
Oct 21 2008, 06:26 AM
Wow whitestar - now I'm even more staunchly against spreading the wealth around than EVER!!! Your link chilled me to the bone! Just a glimpse of the first graphic sent a cold shiver down my spine!
Offline | Profile ^
 
whitestar
Member Avatar
Captain
RTW
Oct 21 2008, 06:26 PM
whitestar
Oct 21 2008, 06:26 AM
Wow whitestar - now I'm even more staunchly against spreading the wealth around than EVER!!! Your link chilled me to the bone! Just a glimpse of the first graphic sent a cold shiver down my spine!
not so scary up close RTW, come on over and we'll chuck a prawn (shrimp) on the barbie, get to see another version of your own country.

P.S As big a version as a 20 million pop can provide
Edited by whitestar, Oct 21 2008, 07:15 PM.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Wichita
Member Avatar
The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Oct 21 2008, 08:13 AM
Wichita
Oct 17 2008, 06:13 AM
Is this what we can look forward to under an Obama adminsitration? Dare to ask him a question and your entire life story is fair game as if you were a public official.




Wichita,

This is a statement you made on the first page of this thread.

If you are blaming the press and not Obama then why make a statement about an Obama administration specifically? If the press is to blame then expect the same no matter who the administration is.
Thank you, Minuet, for posting my original comment again.

As anyone who has read it can clearly see, I DID NOT blame Obama or Obama's administration for the witch hunt leveled against private citizen, Joe the Plumber.

I blamed the news media.

The same news media whose article was posted in the first post in the thread - you know the one that I was responding to when I made the comment posted above.

;)

Minuet
 
If you are blaming the press and not Obama then why make a statement about an Obama administration specifically? If the press is to blame then expect the same no matter who the administration is.


Let me point out that it only took you EIGHT PAGES of this thread before asking me THAT question. Funny thing is that I ALREADY answered that question - on the first page and in my second (I believe) post in this thread.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
DwayneOct 17 2008, 01:57 PM
^^^ Both... they coordinate.
That's NOT what I said.


My point was that there seems to be a trend with the media and Obama. Ask him a question - no matter how benign - and you are accused of being a racist (and worse).

While it is ludicrous to suggest that what Palin (for example) has said is equivalent to getting out fire hoses and turning them on black people, she is a public figure.

Joe the Plumber is a private citizen and, had the Obama campaign not come to his neighborhood, would have most likely never been heard from by the general public.

There is a legal disctinction between how a public and a private person is treated in the media in this country.

Quote:
 
Minuet
And of course the fact that MCCAIN mentioned the man 20 times in the debate had nothing to do with the media wanting to know more about the man.......


McCain said his name 20 times??????????????????



Yeah, that's scary.

Minuet, BEFORE THE DEBATE, I had already learned that Joe was not a licensed plumber, that he was not registered to vote and that he had a tax lien.

Now, if you are comfortable with people searching for you personal information in such a fashion - because you asked a question in a public venue - then certainly that is your business. I do not.


So, although I have made it absolutely clear that I blame the media for their protection of Obama in the face of of anything that may be viewed as threatening to Obama's success, you have continued to claim that I am saying something different than I have, in fact, said.

Just because you believe that the media would behave precisely the same under either administration, doesn't mean that I - or anyone else for that matter - agree with you.

As I said the other day, when you actually want to discuss the issue - let me know.



Offline | Profile ^
 
Wichita
Member Avatar
The Adminstrator wRench
ImpulseEngine
Oct 21 2008, 08:32 AM
Ok, I'll take you at your word. However, my point wasn't just about whether Obama gets the blame, but also about why the scrutiny started. I don't believe it started simply because of the conversation between Obama and Joe. It started because that conversation was made into a bigger deal in the 3rd debate. That then caused the media to pick up on it. This is in reply to something you said earlier along the lines of whether everyone who speaks to Obama is going to get scrutinized.



And I will take you at your word that you don't blame McCain for the treatment that he received either.

However, I will repeat that BEFORE the debate, I was already reading articles detailing various aspects of Joe the Plumber's personal life.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Minuet
Member Avatar
Fleet Admiral Assistant wRench, Chief Supper Officer
Wichita - whenever I have tried to "discuss" the issues with anyone I have found examples wanting. This is one incident. It does not show any trend in my opinion.

Maybe the "press" doesn't protect McCain because the secret service does just fine without their help keeping little old ladies away from him. And he gets plenty of protection from right wing radio too.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
RTW
Oct 21 2008, 06:26 PM
whitestar
Oct 21 2008, 06:26 AM
Wow whitestar - now I'm even more staunchly against spreading the wealth around than EVER!!! Your link chilled me to the bone! Just a glimpse of the first graphic sent a cold shiver down my spine!
Yeah, scared me too.
Offline | Profile ^
 
Admiralbill_gomec
UberAdmiral
Minuet
Oct 22 2008, 08:18 AM
Wichita - whenever I have tried to "discuss" the issues with anyone I have found examples wanting. This is one incident. It does not show any trend in my opinion.

Maybe the "press" doesn't protect McCain because the secret service does just fine without their help keeping little old ladies away from him. And he gets plenty of protection from right wing radio too.
Oh yes, that scary right wing radio... the only part of the media not controlled by the left (even though they control the print media and the television media and a good portion of the electronic media).

But wait, here comes the Fairness Doctrine.
Offline | Profile ^
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and World Events Forum · Next Topic »
Locked Topic

Tweet
comments powered by Disqus