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Joe the Plumber?; Not a plumber. And not even called Joe
Topic Started: Oct 17 2008, 06:00 AM (2,536 Views)
whitestar
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Captain
Your obsession with evils of the left is irrational Dwayne, look around the world some, there are examples of nations who have had some influence of socialistic policies and still manage to do just fine, retain freedoms and manage a government budget with surplus.
Joe the plumber, what a storm in a tea cup, don't be so shocked at the efforts used by either side to discredit or embellish his questions. The very first political tactic (of any political flavour) when faced with any seemingly credible opposition is to discredit that credibility, it's standard practice, nothing personal even if it includes shredding someone's personal life. It's just a fact of life.
We had a similar incident here regarding a whistle blower inside our military and intelligence ranks. He contradicted the Government's (conservative govt) position regarding their assesment of Saddam's WMD, setting out in public completely the intelligence ranks assesment and advise given to the govt. It thoroughly contradicted what the govt claimed (it's opinion falling in line with US claims). The Govt's reaction was to discredit this man in public, drag his personal life into full scrutiny, throw in rumours of mental incompentance, ruined his career in the military and attempted to ruin any future employment prospects with false accusations of immoral behavior. Politics Dwayne, is a ruthless game.. no matter the colour of the political party.
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Minuet
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 04:48 PM
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 03:38 PM
Don't worry about all the radio talk show hosts. If the Fairness Doctine is enforced as you say they can all get jobs at CBS ;)
:no:
Could you please clarify what you mean?

Day in and day out on this site I hear people complain about the left wing bias in the media. If that is true then this fairness doctine should work both ways. Less right wing radio shows. Less left wing tv news shows. I don't see any reason to think that a law like this should affect one side more then the other.

If I were arguing against such a law I would forget about which side is being affected more and simply concentrate on the fact that it would harm freedom of speech. Period. I actually do understand why people would be concerned about such a law and I honestly can't see such a choke on freedom of speech ever getting very far in your country.
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Dwayne
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^^^ We don't see politically balanced enforcement of political behavoir laws already... if ACORN was a rightwing group the media would have torn them apart, just like they did with Newt Gingrich's political action committee when he was speak of the house.

And whitestar, we'll find out if it's irrational in time. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, and am totally ready to sit here and scream, "I AM WRONG ON THIS!" I don't want this to devolve into what I've predicted, but based on what I've seen, I could certainly see it going that way.
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RTW
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whitestar
Oct 19 2008, 09:32 PM
We had a similar incident here regarding a whistle blower inside our military and intelligence ranks. He contradicted the Government's (conservative govt) position regarding their assesment of Saddam's WMD, setting out in public completely the intelligence ranks assesment and advise given to the govt.
WHEN did he do this?

Before the invasion? If so, on what were his views based? Hope, wishful thinking, better intelligence, other?

If he did it after the invasion, then what's the point? Did he offer use of his time-machine so we could all undo the mistake?

On the positive side, at least he did not rant about how he knew that Iraq was not involved with 9/11. We've had a rash of hindsighters sanctimoniously tell us what we already knew. Even the presidential candidate for the Constitution Party was going off on this non-point.
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Minuet
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 10:15 PM
^^^ We don't see politically balanced enforcement of political behavoir laws already... if ACORN was a rightwing group the media would have torn them apart, just like they did with Newt Gingrich's political action committee when he was speak of the house.

What political behaviour laws do you refer to? I am not aware of any laws that limit freedom of speech in your country.

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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 11:23 PM
Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 10:15 PM
^^^ We don't see politically balanced enforcement of political behavoir laws already... if ACORN was a rightwing group the media would have torn them apart, just like they did with Newt Gingrich's political action committee when he was speak of the house.

What political behaviour laws do you refer to? I am not aware of any laws that limit freedom of speech in your country.

They pertain to financial dealings. Who you can support and how much you can give.... that kind of thing.
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whitestar
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RTW
Oct 19 2008, 10:27 PM
WHEN did he do this?

Before the invasion? If so, on what were his views based? Hope, wishful thinking, better intelligence, other?

If he did it after the invasion, then what's the point? Did he offer use of his time-machine so we could all undo the mistake?

On the positive side, at least he did not rant about how he knew that Iraq was not involved with 9/11. We've had a rash of hindsighters sanctimoniously tell us what we already knew. Even the presidential candidate for the Constitution Party was going off on this non-point.
No need for a time machine RTW and to be honest no need for a slightly sarcastic attitude..... you could tone it down a notch or two.
This officer went public BEFORE the invasion, resigning from ONA (Office of National Assesments) in March 2003, stating that our government ignored all reports about WMD from his office and simply followed the lead of the USA and UK.
His name is Andrew Wilkie

P.S his sources you ask? well, the same as yours, ALL of your intelligence is shared with our agencies and visa versa and the UK
Edited by whitestar, Oct 20 2008, 03:19 AM.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Interesting that you would bring up whistleblowers, Whitestar.

If a whistleblower was treated the way the Joe the Plumber has been this past several weeks, the people responsible would be in serious trouble. There are actual laws to protect whistleblowers from this type of abuse. (Sarbanes-Oxley for example)
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 03:26 PM

Number one - no one takes taxes at gunpoint. If you refuse to pay your taxes you recieve a summons. You go to court. You are given a hearing. If you are lucky you can spread the proceedings out for years. No one comes at gunpoint and I have never ever heard of anyone get shot over taxes :rotfl:
Um, actually the Internal Revenue Service can and does take taxes at gunpoint if it so desires. While this is an extreme position, it has done so in the past. In fact, with the IRS you are guilty and have to prove you are innocent.

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Minuet
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 11:34 PM
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 11:23 PM
Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 10:15 PM
^^^ We don't see politically balanced enforcement of political behavoir laws already... if ACORN was a rightwing group the media would have torn them apart, just like they did with Newt Gingrich's political action committee when he was speak of the house.

What political behaviour laws do you refer to? I am not aware of any laws that limit freedom of speech in your country.

They pertain to financial dealings. Who you can support and how much you can give.... that kind of thing.
In what way has there been uneven enforcement? I would love to have some examples.
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Dwayne
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Church-State separation... democrats using church pews to recruit... they've been doing it for years, but only the right gets in trouble for it.
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Minuet
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Really? I know much is made of the connection between some Fundamentalist Christian groups and the Republicans, but I was unaware of any prosecutions. Could you link to some specific cases?
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Dwayne
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Minuet
Oct 20 2008, 08:04 AM
Really? I know much is made of the connection between some Fundamentalist Christian groups and the Republicans, but I was unaware of any prosecutions. Could you link to some specific cases?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95594731

Someone PM'd me and said I ought to just put you on ignore... I'm seriously considering that advice.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 20 2008, 08:14 AM.
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Minuet
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Dwayne's link
 
Stanley says pastors are fed up. In the past four years, the IRS has stepped up its investigations of clergy. It sent letters to 47 churches, including some liberal ones — not just for explicit endorsements, but also for using code words like pro-choice or pro-life in relation to candidates.



Dwayne - you made a SPECIFIC claim of uneven enforcement. Your own source disputes that claim
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Admiralbill_gomec
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Minuet
Oct 20 2008, 08:04 AM
Really? I know much is made of the connection between some Fundamentalist Christian groups and the Republicans, but I was unaware of any prosecutions. Could you link to some specific cases?
Democrats campaign from churches during EVERY election cycle. No one calls them on it. This has been going on for decades.

Of course it is couched by the media as, "Bob Schlobotnik attended the African Methodist Church of Evanston, Illinois, where he gave a brief invocation." Or addressed a congregation. Yadda, yadda, yadda. In reality, Candidate Schlobotnik went to a church and asked for their vote.

Hell, here's one:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/obama-takes-ebe.html

Was this investigated? No.
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