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Joe the Plumber?; Not a plumber. And not even called Joe
Topic Started: Oct 17 2008, 06:00 AM (2,537 Views)
ds9074
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Dwayne
 
And ultimately Minuet, you have the right to your beliefs, but those people who want to remake the United States on a more European-style socioeconomic model, need to move to you country, and quit trying to change mine

Why should they stop trying to change their country if they are doing so via legal means? Is it not a central part of any free society that citizens should have the right to discuss, argue, debate, campaign and ultimately vote for the government and government policies they want.
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Wichita
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Minuet
 
Maybe it's because I was lucky enough to be able to afford to live in a good area that could afford to pour a lot of money into better education. This is where redistribution of wealth comes in. Every child deserves an opportunity to go to "good" schools up to the end of high school.


Some of the worst schools/school districts in the United States have the highest per-student spending.

"More" money doesn't equal better schools.

It is what is done with the money that makes a difference.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Oct 19 2008, 12:31 PM
Dwayne
 
And ultimately Minuet, you have the right to your beliefs, but those people who want to remake the United States on a more European-style socioeconomic model, need to move to you country, and quit trying to change mine

Why should they stop trying to change their country if they are doing so via legal means? Is it not a central part of any free society that citizens should have the right to discuss, argue, debate, campaign and ultimately vote for the government and government policies they want.
Because those legal means require the out-right lying to the populace in order to get it passed. I can count multiple examples... People were convinced the Sixteenth Amendment, which allowed for the taxation of income, would only affect the income of the super rich. If the general public fully understood at the time how that would have been perverted into what we have now, that amendment would never have been ratified.

Social Security was originally billed as a pension plan. If people realized at the time it was just going to be another tax, they would have never wanted it.

Great Society was supposed to end poverty, yet after 40 years and trillions of dollars later, the poverty rates aren't any better, and in many ways, things are worse for the economically disadvantaged. Single parent homes have skyrocketted amongst the poor and have made the situation worse. If people had fully understood what it would have created, they would have never had supported it.

The media ideologically sides with those who want wealth redistribution and have been instrumental in keeping the people ignorant, by downplay and/or ignoring the effects.

And then when you have normal people who challenge the elite on their redistribution plans, we have what the left is doing to Joe the Plumber.
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ds9074
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^^^
If thats what you believe then campaign against it and vote against it.
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Dwayne
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^^^ What do you think I'm doing?
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ds9074
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 01:32 PM
^^^ What do you think I'm doing?
You suggested that those who disagree with you should not only stop campaigning for what they believe in but should leave your country.
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Dwayne
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ds9074
Oct 19 2008, 01:56 PM
Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 01:32 PM
^^^ What do you think I'm doing?
You suggested that those who disagree with you should not only stop campaigning for what they believe in but should leave your country.
Not really... I just want them to stop accusing people who favor capitalism to socialism as being something we're not... Namely, capitalist being racist and just wanting to hurt people... As if all the suffering in the world was caused by capitalism and not human nature. And while you may sit there and say you don't personally believe that is true, the fact remains people Barack Obama has associated himself with... people like Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, and the vast plurality of academia do in fact have beliefs about the world that are along those lines.

Oh yes, the left does try to suggest that, and when Barack Obama says things like, “It’s not that I want to punish your success, I just want to make sure that everybody that is behind you, that they have a chance for success too. I think that when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody,” given his associations, this is just his mask coming off momentarily. Yet his associations should let you see through that mask.

If Barack Obama wins, I am concerned the left may quickly consolidate power by first passing the so-called Fairness Doctrine concepts into an enforceble set of laws, and then will drive talk radio, which is predominately on the right, off the air by using threats of litigation against station owners for not giving equal time. Since the radio stations have already worked the numbers and know there is no audience for leftwing talk radio except for in very specific markets, they'd rather switch formats than have to run programs they know very few people will listen to. Just to deal with the new laws, radio stations would have to decrease by about 50% the number of rightwing talk radio and replace it with leftwing talk radio.

In the same time frame, I believe the income taxes increases will be passed along with a whole host of social programs that will try to entice average people and small businesses with government solutions to some set of problems. Having total control of two branches of government and partial control of the third, there will be very little the right could do to stop them.

And if you just happen to feel differently, the treatment Joe the Plumber is receiving from the left suggest what might be in store in the future. I'm really concerned that we're going to enter a period in American history where true free speech is significantly curtailed, because any opposition to Barack Obama and leftist policies are going to be demagogued as racist. The election process has already shown how they'll operate, and the media will simply go along with it as they are now.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 19 2008, 03:30 PM.
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Minuet
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 12:23 PM
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 11:38 AM
Quote:
 
Yes, some people can more easily afford this or that, and that can seem unfair, but taking, with threats of violence, what others have rightfully earned isn't seemingly unfair, it is unfair.


Ummm - we are talking about taxes here. Where did the rhetoric about threats of violence come from?

No one is taking what others have rightfully earned. Taxes are taken to benefit society as a whole. An educated populace is IMO a benefit to society as a whole.Without education that was freely available to all where do you think your society would be today? Do you think you and I would be sitting here at our computers having this conversation if the general populace had never had the opportunity to get even basic education? Not likely because computers would probably not exist. Basic education leads to the desire for higher education. As already pointed out in my prior statement higher education is not a right. Government loans are meant to be paid back.

It is because of the larger numbers of educated people in Western society that we have been able to make the large technological leaps that we have made. Just look at countries that have not had those opportunities and how backward they still are.

Basic education, paid for by taxes is a benefit to all. And in my opinion a right.
First off, let me point out that ultimately all taxes are collected at the point of a gun, because if you refuse the polite means of government collection, they'll send men with guns to your home or business, and they'll collect their tax by force.

Now you have this major contradiction here....

"No one is taking what others have rightfully earned. Taxes are taken to benefit society as a whole."

Your second sentence negates the first. If people are having taxes taken from their pay for any reason, then rightfully earned money is taken. PERIOD.

Then there is the issue of the first sentence itself. The premise of your sentence suggests that no one takes rightfully earned money... The money taken is ill-gotten. This is class envy at its worst, because it's so insidiously inter-woven into the whole narrative the left tells about capitalism, that no one ever really challenges the notion.

Oh, and those "large technological leaps that we have made"... You know you can thank military spending for all most all of it. And where the military wasn't directly funding the R & D through organizations like DARPA, military imperatives encourage private capital to flow toward R & D. Look at where the integrated circuit would be if not for the United States military making more and more advanced weapons, better sensing technology, and faster communication systems.

And ultimately Minuet, you have the right to your beliefs, but those people who want to remake the United States on a more European-style socioeconomic model, need to move to you country, and quit trying to change mine.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

This whole response is a joke - right?

Number one - no one takes taxes at gunpoint. If you refuse to pay your taxes you recieve a summons. You go to court. You are given a hearing. If you are lucky you can spread the proceedings out for years. No one comes at gunpoint and I have never ever heard of anyone get shot over taxes :rotfl:

Second - I should have maybe said that taxes are paid by all to benefit society as a whole. But it is pretty silly of you to jump on the word taken when what I was saying was pretty damn clear. If you live in a society there are certain contributions expected to help pay for the things that society as a whole needs. Like the military, police, and yes, education.

Three - you are the one being contradictory - with regards to the large technological leaps. Once again this could only happen with an educated public. The military is responsible for a great deal of those advances - but did you forget what pays for the military? Oh yeah - taxes. Also, the military is one way that people can get a post secondary education.....paid for by your taxes. The return of course, is those technological advances. But they wouldn't happen without taxes. You can get on your high horse about those things coming from the US (not all do by the way - Israel is a technological leader in many of these areas, and it is just a tiny, European style socialistic country) but ultimately you need to recognize that this would never happen without taxes.

Four - I cannot believe that you have the unmitigated gall to tell people who don't agree with you to move to my country or any other. If the majority in your country decides that they don't like how things are run then they have the right to change things by electing a new government. If those who want to remake the US on a European-style socioeconomic model are in the minority then really, you should have nothing to worry about.
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Minuet
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Wichita
Oct 19 2008, 01:00 PM
Minuet
 
Maybe it's because I was lucky enough to be able to afford to live in a good area that could afford to pour a lot of money into better education. This is where redistribution of wealth comes in. Every child deserves an opportunity to go to "good" schools up to the end of high school.


Some of the worst schools/school districts in the United States have the highest per-student spending.

"More" money doesn't equal better schools.

It is what is done with the money that makes a difference.
I will grant you that point Wichita. There is definitely waste in many systems that could be cut.

But the bigger point being made to Dwayne was that taxes are the price paid to live in a civilized society and I still stand by that point. If no taxes were paid to education then no one would be educated except the rich. Period. And society would be far behind where we are now technologically.
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Minuet
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Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 03:25 PM
ds9074
Oct 19 2008, 01:56 PM
Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 01:32 PM
^^^ What do you think I'm doing?
You suggested that those who disagree with you should not only stop campaigning for what they believe in but should leave your country.
Not really... I just want them to stop accusing people who favor capitalism to socialism as being something we're not... Namely, capitalist being racist and just wanting to hurt people... As if all the suffering in the world was caused by capitalism and not human nature. And while you may sit there and say you don't personally believe that is true, the fact remains people Barack Obama has associated himself with... people like Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, and the vast plurality of academia do in fact have beliefs about the world that are along those lines.

Oh yes, the left does try to suggest that, and when Barack Obama says things like, “It’s not that I want to punish your success, I just want to make sure that everybody that is behind you, that they have a chance for success too. I think that when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody,” given his associations, this is just his mask coming off momentarily. Yet his associations should let you see through that mask.

If Barack Obama wins, I am concerned the left may quickly consolidate power by first passing the so-called Fairness Doctrine concepts into an enforceble set of laws, and then will drive talk radio, which is predominately on the right, off the air by using threats of litigation against station owners for not giving equal time. Since the radio stations have already worked the numbers and know there is no audience for leftwing talk radio except for in very specific markets, they'd rather switch formats than have to run programs they know very few people will listen to. Just to deal with the new laws, radio stations would have to decrease by about 50% the number of rightwing talk radio and replace it with leftwing talk radio.

In the same time frame, I believe the income taxes increases will be passed along with a whole host of social programs that will try to entice average people and small businesses with government solutions to some set of problems. Having total control of two branches of government and partial control of the third, there will be very little the right could do to stop them.

And if you just happen to feel differently, the treatment Joe the Plumber is receiving from the left suggest what might be in store in the future. I'm really concerned that we're going to enter a period in American history where true free speech is significantly curtailed, because any opposition to Barack Obama and leftist policies are going to be demagogued as racist. The election process has already shown how they'll operate, and the media will simply go along with it as they are now.
Don't worry about all the radio talk show hosts. If the Fairness Doctine is enforced as you say they can all get jobs at CBS ;)
Edited by Minuet, Oct 19 2008, 03:40 PM.
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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 03:26 PM
Dwayne
Oct 19 2008, 12:23 PM
Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 11:38 AM
Quote:
 
Yes, some people can more easily afford this or that, and that can seem unfair, but taking, with threats of violence, what others have rightfully earned isn't seemingly unfair, it is unfair.


Ummm - we are talking about taxes here. Where did the rhetoric about threats of violence come from?

No one is taking what others have rightfully earned. Taxes are taken to benefit society as a whole. An educated populace is IMO a benefit to society as a whole.Without education that was freely available to all where do you think your society would be today? Do you think you and I would be sitting here at our computers having this conversation if the general populace had never had the opportunity to get even basic education? Not likely because computers would probably not exist. Basic education leads to the desire for higher education. As already pointed out in my prior statement higher education is not a right. Government loans are meant to be paid back.

It is because of the larger numbers of educated people in Western society that we have been able to make the large technological leaps that we have made. Just look at countries that have not had those opportunities and how backward they still are.

Basic education, paid for by taxes is a benefit to all. And in my opinion a right.
First off, let me point out that ultimately all taxes are collected at the point of a gun, because if you refuse the polite means of government collection, they'll send men with guns to your home or business, and they'll collect their tax by force.

Now you have this major contradiction here....

"No one is taking what others have rightfully earned. Taxes are taken to benefit society as a whole."

Your second sentence negates the first. If people are having taxes taken from their pay for any reason, then rightfully earned money is taken. PERIOD.

Then there is the issue of the first sentence itself. The premise of your sentence suggests that no one takes rightfully earned money... The money taken is ill-gotten. This is class envy at its worst, because it's so insidiously inter-woven into the whole narrative the left tells about capitalism, that no one ever really challenges the notion.

Oh, and those "large technological leaps that we have made"... You know you can thank military spending for all most all of it. And where the military wasn't directly funding the R & D through organizations like DARPA, military imperatives encourage private capital to flow toward R & D. Look at where the integrated circuit would be if not for the United States military making more and more advanced weapons, better sensing technology, and faster communication systems.

And ultimately Minuet, you have the right to your beliefs, but those people who want to remake the United States on a more European-style socioeconomic model, need to move to you country, and quit trying to change mine.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

This whole response is a joke - right?

Number one - no one takes taxes at gunpoint. If you refuse to pay your taxes you recieve a summons. You go to court. You are given a hearing. If you are lucky you can spread the proceedings out for years. No one comes at gunpoint and I have never ever heard of anyone get shot over taxes :rotfl:

Second - I should have maybe said that taxes are paid by all to benefit society as a whole. But it is pretty silly of you to jump on the word taken when what I was saying was pretty damn clear. If you live in a society there are certain contributions expected to help pay for the things that society as a whole needs. Like the military, police, and yes, education.

Three - you are the one being contradictory - with regards to the large technological leaps. Once again this could only happen with an educated public. The military is responsible for a great deal of those advances - but did you forget what pays for the military? Oh yeah - taxes. Also, the military is one way that people can get a post secondary education.....paid for by your taxes. The return of course, is those technological advances. But they wouldn't happen without taxes. You can get on your high horse about those things coming from the US (not all do by the way - Israel is a technological leader in many of these areas, and it is just a tiny, European style socialistic country) but ultimately you need to recognize that this would never happen without taxes.

Four - I cannot believe that you have the unmitigated gall to tell people who don't agree with you to move to my country or any other. If the majority in your country decides that they don't like how things are run then they have the right to change things by electing a new government. If those who want to remake the US on a European-style socioeconomic model are in the minority then really, you should have nothing to worry about.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

This whole response is a joke - right?

Number One - You really seem one deminsional in your logic here. You seem to believe that the UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (or your government for that matter) will allow a citizen to indiffinately fight a tax or series of taxes. Now what happens after all appeals have been exhausted and as a matter of principle you face a precipice, and either must submit to the will of the state or continue to fight? What happens then MINNNNNNNNNUUUUUET??!?!?!?!?!?! What happens if you continue to fight the state? Huh? Huh? HUH!?!?!?!

Yes, we all should already know what would happen, the state will come down on you with force. And it really rankles me when you play stupid and act as if you can't add two and two, then get four.

Number Two - Really there are several points about your Second... First, where do you get taxes are paid by all? Non-producers are people who could work, but don't work. They are the leeches of society, and don't pay taxes at all. They don't benefit society at all. I'm sick of the left making excuses for them and why my money ought to be used on them. I help the truly destitute through charity. They run the soup kitchen and the shelters. They collect clothes and food, and then redistributes them. The state safety net is just another leech that sucks up good money, pretends to help, does a bad job, and then claims they need just a bit more money to solve the problem.

Next sub thought... Yes, it was pretty damn clear... You do favor a government that on a national level has the ability to take greater percentages of your income as your income increases. And yes, you think you're doing this out of fairness.

Last sub thought... Your 'military, police, and yes, education' strawman is getting old. Military and police are necessary for a state to exist in the first place, and are always going to be an element in government spending at all levels. I've never suggested otherwise. Politically, I am opposed to the government on the federal level taking over the responsibilities constitutionally originally left to the states. Being Canadian, I don't expect you to appreciate that.

Number Three - :ZZZZZ:

The whole premise is that I'm opposed to tax payer money being used to help pay for education. I'm not, I just favor a bottom up approach, whereas you big government types favor a top down approach.

Number Four - Um, what's wrong with that? I advocate anyone in the world who likes America's separation of powers, individual rights, and free market capitalism to move here pronto. But if America really is bad and needs changing, leave this place. Let us collapse without all you brilliant leftists to save us poor dumb rubes.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 19 2008, 04:51 PM.
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Dwayne
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Minuet
Oct 19 2008, 03:38 PM
Don't worry about all the radio talk show hosts. If the Fairness Doctine is enforced as you say they can all get jobs at CBS ;)
:no:
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Moderator Comment:

Minuet and Dwayne:

You both are skirting the line.

Rather than calling each other's response "a joke" let's just address the content and leave out the personal comments.

Dwayne, you qualified who you were referring to as "leeches" so I am letting it stand. However, not all people who do not pay taxes can work so don't be calling them leeches or a warning will be coming.



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Dwayne
Profanity deleted by Hoss
^^^ Well, thank you. I tried to be as specific as possible to people who could work, but don't work. I'm sorry if I'm arguing my point too strenuously.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 19 2008, 05:44 PM.
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Minuet
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Quote:
 
Number Four - Um, what's wrong with that? I advocate anyone in the world who likes America's separation of powers, individual rights, and free market capitalism to move here pronto. But if America really is bad and needs changing, leave this place. Let us collapse without all you brilliant leftists to save us poor dumb rubes.


You refered earlier to envy being the problem. No, envy is not the problem, intolerance is the problem. Unless your two sides get your act together and start respecting each others POV your country is in serious, deep trouble.
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