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Joe the Plumber?; Not a plumber. And not even called Joe
Topic Started: Oct 17 2008, 06:00 AM (2,540 Views)
Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Oct 17 2008, 10:09 AM
Ok - could you provide a link to where you did learn the personal information? You are claiming it was dug up by left wingers. Let's see some proof.
No, Minuet, you are claiming that I said it was dug up by left-wingers.

I never said that.

The only reference I made to "left-wingers" was that his home address was printed on a left-wing blog.

Can we assume from your lack of comment on what I mentioned earlier that you think ONLY McCain should have been prohibited from saying Joe the Plumber's name and not Biden and/or Obama?
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Minuet
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Wichita
Oct 17 2008, 10:26 AM
Minuet
Oct 17 2008, 10:09 AM
Ok - could you provide a link to where you did learn the personal information? You are claiming it was dug up by left wingers. Let's see some proof.
No, Minuet, you are claiming that I said it was dug up by left-wingers.

I never said that.

The only reference I made to "left-wingers" was that his home address was printed on a left-wing blog.

Can we assume from your lack of comment on what I mentioned earlier that you think ONLY McCain should have been prohibited from saying Joe the Plumber's name and not Biden and/or Obama?
Quote:
 
Is this what we can look forward to under an Obama adminsitration? Dare to ask him a question and your entire life story is fair game as if you were a public official.


You appear to be making an accusation of Obama here. The way you wrote this indicates that you believe that Obama's camp is responsible for the information about "Joe" being dug up.

So I could ask a similar question of you. Do you think that ONLY Obama should be prohibited from saying Joe the Plumber's name and not McCain?

Now some questions about the "left wing blog". First - can you provide any evidence that they were the first or the only ones to print this address?

I read some interesting stuff when I looked the man up. Is it possible at all that the man was a Republican plant? If he actually is then who is really responsible for putting him in the spotlight?
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Swidden
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To me, "Joe the Plumber", or whoever he really is, did ask a fair question nonetheless. This whole business of let's discredit the guy doesn't mean there is no validity to the question asked by him of Senator Obama.

That being said, I think this should serve as a cautionary lesson to anyone these days. If you are fool enough to speak to someone approaching either Sen. Obama or McCain's stature in politics and it happens to be in front of the cameras, then you can bet that there is a good chance that the media is going to want to know who you are. The fact that this guy was somewhat deceptive only makes him that much more newsworthy.

If anyone is fool enough to ask such a question in the future they should think far enough in advance to pose their question in a hypothetical form. Ask it more along the lines of: "Let's say I am getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year, your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?” If he had done that, then he might have been more of a none story.
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Dwayne
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"The fact that this guy was somewhat deceptive only makes him that much more newsworthy."

Um, how was Joe the Plumber being deceptive?
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
Minuet
Oct 17 2008, 10:56 AM
You appear to be making an accusation of Obama here. The way you wrote this indicates that you believe that Obama's camp is responsible for the information about "Joe" being dug up.

Ummm, Minuet, the first post in this thread included the information I referred to .... written by the news media.

If you assumed that I meant something other than the news media, then it is precisely that - your assumption and nothing else.

Minuet
 
So I could ask a similar question of you. Do you think that ONLY Obama should be prohibited from saying Joe the Plumber's name and not McCain?


I have no idea why you think point relates to another.

I asked you that question - which you have yet to answer - because you criticized McCain for saying the guy's name.

I, however, NEVER criticized either Obama or Biden for doing so your question has already been answered.

Minuet
 
Now some questions about the "left wing blog". First - can you provide any evidence that they were the first or the only ones to print this address?


As you don't seem to recall, I made the comment that a left-wing blog posted his address in response to your saying:

Minuet
 
Maybe if the right-wing bloggers and McCain hadn't used this guy he would be forgotten by now.


Given that a left-wing blog posted his home address, it obviously refutes your claim that McCain and the right-wing blogs alone are responsible for his name still being in the news.

I NEVER claimed that they were either the first or the only one to do so.

Minuet
 
I read some interesting stuff when I looked the man up. Is it possible at all that the man was a Republican plant? If he actually is then who is really responsible for putting him in the spotlight?


If he was, the McCain campaign is much better organized than any event has indicated to date.

Again, the Obama campaign chose - supposedly randomly - the situation when Obama encountered Joe the Plumber. If they were somehow directed to the exact spot where a Republican plant was ... well, like I said, I don't think the McCain campaign has shown the capability to set that up, but there is probably somebody who thinks it is true.

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Swidden
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Dwayne
Oct 17 2008, 11:36 AM
"The fact that this guy was somewhat deceptive only makes him that much more newsworthy."

Um, how was Joe the Plumber being deceptive?
Let's not get into hair splitting. Personally, I don't think I have seen the whole exchange between "Joe" and Sen. Obama. However, from what I have seen and what has followed since that has allowed his story to be so thoroughly picked apart he may not have been completely honest about his circumstances and/or his objective(s). If you want to insist we break down his entire story, then I frankly think it contributes to distracting further the validity of his question to Sen. Obama about whether or not the situation he describes would result in a tax increase or not for someone with a business that generates $250-k or more in earnings.
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Dwayne
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Actually, it's not splitting hairs... the left and their enablers in the media have attacked this man on these points...

A. He is a republican plant.
B. He didn't use his real name.
C. He's not really a plumber.
D. He has a tax lien.
E. He is somehow associated with Charles Keating.

On A... It seems way beyond believable that somehow republicans were able to get a plant on a street Barack Obama decided on his own volition to walk down.

As for B... His real middle name is Joseph.

C... He works as a plumber and you don't have to have a license in the state of Ohio.

To D now... There are those on Barack Obama's campaign that have tax liens... what's the point here?

E... Specious at best.


Democrats are making the assertion that this man was less than honest and it only helps them in the long run when we don't challenge these notions they toss out. Without the push back, the media and the left in general will carry on with the assertion as though it is truth.

It doesn't help when people who should be on the side of Joe the Plumber, admit they did't hear the man's words, but believe there's enough to believe he was less than credible.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 18 2008, 02:19 AM.
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8247
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Apparently we look like this now
I haven't read this whole thread, and I am too tired to do so right now (I will tomorrow)

But, his middle name is JOSEPH which Joe is short for. At least acknowledges his middle name, unlike a certain Democrat presidential candidate.

Most people here know my name is Bill. Guess what? My middle name is William, which is where Bill comes from. I do not go by my first name.
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Wichita
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The Adminstrator wRench
An example of mainstream media bias ...

This is from AP and broadcast by a mainstream broadcast medium. It is absolutely NOT a blog.

Article
 
McCain speaks with Joe the Plumber
The Associated Press Updated: 10/17/2008 8:03:52 PM Posted: 10/17/2008 8:01:27 PM

John McCain says he's had his first chance to speak with "Joe the Plumber," who's become a major talking point in his presidential campaign.

McCain has repeatedly invoked "Joe the Plumber," an Ohio man named Joe Wurzelbacher who became famous when he questioned Barack Obama about his tax proposals. Obama told him that "when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." The McCain campaign was quick to jump on that remark.

Speaking in Melbourne, Florida, McCain says Wurzelbacher's spirits "are good and he's a tough guy." He encouraged the crowd to "send Joe an e-mail and tell him you're with him."

Earlier today, McCain charged that Obama and his campaign have been attacking Wurzelbacher. In fact, Obama and Joe
Biden have attacked McCain for portraying Wurzelbacher as representative of most blue-collar workers.


The piece is a fairly straightforward news article until the last sentence. No complaint with the first part.

However, at the end, the reporter decides to be a spokeperson for the Obama campaign and declare that McCain charges are inaccurate.

It isn't "a fact" what Obama is actually doing - it is the reporters opinion.

The reporter could have easily said "The Obama/Biden campaign dispute McCain's charges and have attacked McCain for portraying Wurzelbacher a representative of blue-collar workers." - and would have gotten the same message across - the dispute with the charges - without the blatant bias.

BTW, I didn't doublecheck, but I think he got Obama's quote wrong as well.


Edited by Wichita, Oct 18 2008, 05:25 AM.
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ImpulseEngine
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article posted by ds9074
 
"He claims that this honest, hard-working small businessman could not possibly have enough income to face a tax increase under the Obama plan," Mr McCain said.

"What they don't know is that Joe the Plumber recently signed a very lucrative contract with a wealthy couple to handle all the work on all seven of their houses."

Does anyone besides me find this just a wee bit suspicious? Let's see, a plumber who happens to make an unusually large sum of money for a plumber just so happens to be hired by McCain to work on his houses and just so happens to approach Obama on the street to complain about taxes. And that just so happens to make it to YouTube and so happens to be brought up in the debates. Hmm.... Is it really any wonder that the matter is being questioned by Democrats? But wasn't that the whole point? So when they did question it, Republicans could point the finger at Democrats and complain about how they're picking on this poor, poor, "innocent" plumber...? This really stinks of an election year setup. The Republican camp is getting desperate. Very desperate.
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Minuet
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IE - in all fairness I think the comment about the 7 houses was meant to be a joke. I am pretty sure McCain has not hired Joe the Plumber.

The rest, however, I agree with.
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Dwayne
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^^^ There you all go again.

"Let's see, a plumber who happens to make an unusually large sum of money..."

You either have no clue what you're talking about and just repeating Obama spin, or you are a blant liar and just repeating Obama spin.

If you think that's an insult, so be it... in fact, if you actually have seen the video, then you'd know what I'm saying is the truth.


The fact is, the stipulation is that this man is buying a business that makes in excess of $250,000. He doesn't make that much yet!

"...just so happens to be hired by McCain to work on his houses..."

That was a joke told at the Al Smith Dinner.

"...just so happens to approach Obama on the street to complain about taxes..."

I think you have that backwards... watch the video... Obama's the one that approached him and he was just one person in at least 20.

"And that just so happens to make it to YouTube..."

It was on the news on some networks prior to the debate since the national media was strolling along with Obama, so why wouldn't it be on YouTube or be mentioned in the debates?

It's really incredible that you people actually utter words so easily refuted, yet wish anyone to take you seriously.
Edited by Dwayne, Oct 18 2008, 12:44 PM.
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Dwayne
Oct 18 2008, 12:14 PM
The fact is, the stipulation is that this man is buying a business that makes in excess of $250,000. He doesn't make that much yet!
Correct. And it changes nothing that I said except that I didn't phrase it very well. Here: And it just so happens that he's going to buy a business that makes in excess of $250,000 and so he will be making in excess of $250,000 for tax purposes. Does that make you happier?

Quote:
 
"...just so happens to be hired by McCain to work on his houses..."

That was a joke told at the Al Smith Dinner.
Thanks. You're correct. I skimmed the article too quickly and missed that. But it doesn't change my point.

Quote:
 
"...just so happens to approach Obama on the street to complain about taxes..."

I think you have that backwards... watch the video... Obama's the one that approached him and he was just one person in at least 20.
No, you do. Watch your own video. It starts ALREADY IN PROGRESS with Obama saying "yes sir, what's your name?" Either something was already said to Obama to get his attention or there had been some gestural attempt to get his attention that he was responding to.

Quote:
 
"And that just so happens to make it to YouTube..."

It was on the news on some networks prior to the debate, since the national media was strolling along with Obama, so it why wouldn't it be on YouTube or be mentioned in the debates?
Whatever. It made it to the news. Obama talks to hundreds of people everyday. I don't see those on the news. Why this one?

Quote:
 
It's really incredible that you people actually utter words so easily refuted, yet wish anyone to take you seriously.
You have this one backwards too. ;)
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Dwayne
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ImpulseEngine
Oct 18 2008, 12:52 PM
Dwayne
Oct 18 2008, 12:14 PM
The fact is, the stipulation is that this man is buying a business that makes in excess of $250,000. He doesn't make that much yet!
Correct. And it changes nothing that I said except that I didn't phrase it very well. Here: And it just so happens that he's going to buy a business that makes in excess of $250,000 and so he will be making in excess of $250,000 for tax purposes. Does that make you happier?

Quote:
 
"...just so happens to be hired by McCain to work on his houses..."

That was a joke told at the Al Smith Dinner.
Thanks. You're correct. I skimmed the article too quickly and missed that. But it doesn't change my point.

Quote:
 
"...just so happens to approach Obama on the street to complain about taxes..."

I think you have that backwards... watch the video... Obama's the one that approached him and he was just one person in at least 20.
No, you do. Watch your own video. It starts ALREADY IN PROGRESS with Obama saying "yes sir, what's your name?" Either something was already said to Obama to get his attention or there had been some gestural attempt to get his attention that he was responding to.

Quote:
 
"And that just so happens to make it to YouTube..."

It was on the news on some networks prior to the debate, since the national media was strolling along with Obama, so it why wouldn't it be on YouTube or be mentioned in the debates?
Whatever. It made it to the news. Obama talks to hundreds of people everyday. I don't see those on the news. Why this one?

Quote:
 
It's really incredible that you people actually utter words so easily refuted, yet wish anyone to take you seriously.
You have this one backwards too. ;)
It's incredible how you think you're right, but in actuality are so thoroughly wrong.

"No, you do. Watch your own video. It starts ALREADY IN PROGRESS with Obama saying "yes sir, what's your name?" Either something was already said to Obama to get his attention or there had been some gestural attempt to get his attention that he was responding to."

Why was Obama walking down the street Joe lives on?

As I've already pointed out, Obama's the one that approached him. Now you think you have a point, in that Joe asked Obama a question, but to believe that Joe was a plant, then you'd also have to believe that McCain's team is SOOOOOOO organized that they were able to figure out what street Obama would be on, then make sure they had a plant living on that street.

Yeah, RIGHT!

"Whatever. It made it to the news. Obama talks to hundreds of people everyday. I don't see those on the news. Why this one?"

Obama doesn't talk to hundreds of critics a day. In fact, he's generally shielded from critics.


I completely empathize with what you're doing here. Your guy has been exposed as the socialist he is, and knowing that socialism is antithetical to the vast majority of Americans, you must destroy the man who tricked Obama into revealing his true nature.

And that, my friends is the issue with Obama's associations, Ayers, Wright, ACORN, and others... All Obama's associations are with people who are avowed anti-capitalist, who believe that capitalism is synonymous with racism. They believe to cure racism, we must first destroy capitalism and replace it with socialism.

Read their words and you'll know their intentions.
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Dwayne
Oct 18 2008, 01:12 PM
Why was Obama walking down the street Joe lives on?

As I've already pointed out, Obama's the one that approached him. Now you think you have a point, in that Joe asked Obama a question, but to believe that Joe was a plant, then you'd also have to believe that McCain's team is SOOOOOOO organized that they were able to figure out what street Obama would be on, then make sure they had a plant living on that street.

Yeah, RIGHT!
He lives on that street? Proof...?

Quote:
 
"Whatever. It made it to the news. Obama talks to hundreds of people everyday. I don't see those on the news. Why this one?"

Obama doesn't talk to hundreds of critics a day. In fact, he's generally shielded from critics.
What planet are you living on? You don't honestly believe that with the 100's of people Obama talks to everyday, none of them ever challenge him...?! Oh wait, it must be Obama's "divine nature", that's it... He's able to use his supernatural powers to make sure he only gets die-hard supporters at his public appearances. :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
I completely empathize with what you're doing here. Your guy has been exposed as the socialist he is, and knowing that socialism is antithetical to the vast majority of Americans, you must destroy the man who tricked Obama into revealing his true nature.
:rotfl: No you and the rest of the anti-Obama brigade must fabricate Obama's "true nature" because it's the only hope you have. (Not that there's much there either.)

Quote:
 
And that, my friends is the issue with Obama's associations, Ayers, Wright, ACORN, and others... All Obama's associations are with people who are avowed anti-capitalist, who believe that capitalism is synonymous with racism. They believe to cure racism, we must first destroy capitalism and replace it with socialism.

Read their words and you'll know their intentions.
Just keep repeating that. After awhile, you might even believe it yourself. ;)
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