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[x]Kitsune (Illusionary Trickster)
Topic Started: Wed May 31, 2017 5:09 pm (1,713 Views)
Vincetie
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Just created this first draft of a new PRC that will probably be used by my newest character Vin at some point in the future. So I would like to get some input. Mostly he will be an illusionist character thus a lot of illusion focus in this one.

Kitsune (Illusionary Trickster)


Level 1
Kitsune Tails: A measurement of power both physically and magically for Kitsunes. You start with or grow three fox like tails. Each tail is prehensile and can wield light weapon like a dagger like if you had it in your hand. You grow an additional tail each level.

Level 2:
Fox Fire: A small ball of flame that does minor flame damage, however it the ball is completely controllable by the Kitsune Trickster and can home in on an a target as long as they remain in sight. The Kitsune Trickster can create one ball of fox fire per tail.

Level 3:
Kitsune Magic Conversion: All spells that are not illusions can be turned into an illusion spell. Spell converted like this will do more damage as long as the illusion is believed, but will only do half damage if your illusion is seen through.

Kitsune Illusionary Weapon Style: For each tail you posses you can make one attack that is overlayed with an illusionary double. The illusion will come at a dfferent angle thant the actual attack making the enemy to chose between which attack to block. You can use more than one charge for a single attack which increases the number of illusionary attacks by one. This ability replenishes each night when the moon is at it's zenith.

Level 4:
Illusionary Doubles: You can create on illusionary copy of your self per tail. Three times per battle you can swap positions with any of these illusionary doubles.

True Deception: Your illusions are immune to spells and abilities like detect illusions or detect magic. In addition once per day you can focus on one person you can make them fail any attempt to see through one illusion for three posts.

Level 5:
Illusion as Reality: For three posts any illusion you have cast becomes real. However you are drained of both physical and magical energy for some time afterwards due to extream mana overdraw/exahustion.
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Aeyliea
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Level 1: I don't see any problem with this except dam that would hebhard to rp lol

Level 2: this is basically threaded flames with more control over the fireballs. Maybe retool this a little bit?

Level 3: KMC - first, I think rather than converting to illusion, which has no element, perhaps just have it so that the spell gains illusory qualities, making it look nastier than it is? This needs a definite modifier (slight, moderate, major) for damage increase. This needs a use limiter.

Illusory weapon thing: fine. Needs some recording, and you do not need to make recharge a nightly thing, just a max uses per battle.

Level 4: Illusory doubles: Three times is too much since that's basically three attacks you are negating.

True Deception: No. Immunity to detection is not acceptable, without taking anything else into consideration. Couple this with KMC and you are giving yourself instant spell buffs and removing drawbacks. Regardless, immunity is something we try to avoid using. If you made it targetable and last a round, that would work, or just make it targetable and increase the difficulty of being able to he detected by some degree would be better.

Level 5: This is fine, but a bit...lacking for an apex ability.
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redfiver
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Level 1: Eh yeah it is an interesting thing to RP. Hard, but fun.

Level 2: Fox Fire: Hmm... yeah, but not sure what to retool it towards... Oh there is an idea, maybe on hit covers a person in flames (could be illusionary ones if a DOT is too powerful) that continue to burn the enemy for additional minor damage for say two or three posts.

Level 3: Kitsune Magic Conversion: Hmm... well the class is supposed to be an illusion specialist and illusions don't create damage spells. Thus I thought of converting other spells. I was originally going to convert all spells, but that prevents support and healing spells, which can be essential things. Hmm.. perhaps converts all damage spells to illusions would be better phrasing? It is supposed to be a duel edged sword as people can resist and take no damage. I would say moderate if I have to specif the damage modifier this way.

Kitsune Illusionary Weapon Style: Not sure what you mean by recording? As per uses right now I was using the number of tails which maxes at 7. Is seven times per battle too much given you can burn multiple uses at once? If too much we can make it half number which would be three to four per battle depending on rounding?

Level 4: Illusory doubles: Okay 1 per battle fine? I have no problem changing that.

True Deception: Okay I have to disagree with you on this one. The immunity clause was for things like damage. This is immunity against an instant and absolute counter to most if not all it's abilities. Illusions are sort of a weak spell class here. They not only have all weakness of magic, such as being dispelled, anti-magic etc, but they have an absolute spell counter of detect illusions. Illusions don't work if you know they are illusions. I could limit it just to detect illusions I suppose as that is the easiest one to use, but I couldn't remember if there were any other things that worked just like detect illusions, but had a different name. We have had along history of items, so I wanted to keep it open to similar abilities too. Detect magic is similar as it would tell you hey that is magical and that person is not. That must be the illusions, but I am open to removing detect magic.

Two you have consider that all illusions are subject to what I call the disbelief clause. This means that any player can just claim to disbelieve it without much effort. Even if we go by ST/staff ruling that has proven more than random in my opinion. No offense to any staff member, but peoples beliefs on what is reasonable varies a lot. So even if detect illusions doesn't work a person can still bypass the illusions by the basic I have a strong mind and disbelieve it. They are not immune to being resisted, just immune to being auto resisted and the entire class made worthless by one single spell. This is supposed to be a specialist class in illusions. It makes sense they would figure out a counter to a weakness that glaringly obvious. It is why KMC converts into illusions. You are supper focused on the illusions and not much else.

As for the second part of the ability it does force an auto fail, so I can see that as too powerful may better if it lasts for one round. One round against one person for a boost if combined with KMC. Hmm... since you found the level five weaker and this stronger we could also swap this to level five and move Illusion as Reality to level four. Though illusions becoming real still feels tier five to me... shrugs.

If Illusion as Reality stays at tier five I don't see much more to change besides removing the draw back.
Edited by redfiver, Sat Jun 3, 2017 6:05 pm.
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Aeyliea
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This argument is essentially the same argument we have had regarding another mind magic based cprc. The abilities do not cause damage as such, but could be used in such a way as to radically alter the course of a thread. I won't use the ST argument here although that is a thing. People could do the same thing with damaging spells anyway - never taking hits, dodging everything. That is poor RP etiquette and frowned strongly upon. It doesn't change the fact that makes your illusory spells auto-hit. There are other ways to word or limit this ability that makes it not an auto hit ability, such as stating that people with lower skill levels in, say, Arcana and/or concentration skills than the Kitsune will have an extremely difficult time detecting your illusion, even with the aide of detect magic/illusion. I wasn't saying to make uneasy to detect, just don't make it an ability without any kind of out at all.

Adding KMC means you just got an auto moderate boost to a spell from a level two ability.

Also, about kmc, I am a bit confused with where you are going with this. You are saying damage spells are converted to illusion. What I was getting at is, unless the spell Sharpen the Knives is active, illusions can cause no damage at all. So, what would be the damage source for spells converted to illusion? Are they still doing their elemental damage despite being illusory, or are those spells converted to non-elemental damage?
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redfiver
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Ah I think I get what you mean now and I did forget to take that into consideration...I will modify the description as you suggest with things like lower ranks of arcana/concentration.

As for KMC I will be honestly I didn't know a spell existed for making illusions damaging. I suppose KMC is working like that a bit. It is working off the principle that the illusion is so convincing that you take damage because you believe you are damaged. It is a real concept in real life and has been proven to work on small scale. Or say people getting scared to death sort of thing. I am sort upping that concept to give a sort of damaging illusion with KMC, but as said it is a duel edged sword. Yes you get a strong boost in damage, but it can also do no damage...

Hmm maybe a better way to describe KMC's damage boost would be to scale it a bit. It starts as a minor additional damage boost for say minor or moderate damage spells, major damage spells would have moderate damage boost. Again as said I will add in a clause to make all spells act as if they were the real spell and thus no auto hit or such.

Sorry if this is complicated, but illusions are one of the harder things to work with so thanks for taking the time to review this. I will try to get a new version up with this feedback.
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Aeyliea
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We still need to identify the kind of damage it is converting spells into. This is a mechanical thing; changing spells to illusion but retaining it's elemental base and then boosting the damage is one thing. Changing a spell to illusion and changing its element to non elemental or psychic base is something else entirely. Chiefly, allowing you to all up damage while at the same time bypassing resistances that characters may have entirely, or things of that nature - specifically, allowing you to turn any and all spells into non elemental based damage spells, which is something we have been wary of allowing anyone to do.
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Vincetie
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Oh I would retain the basic element and will mention that in the updated version as soon as I can. For the effect to work you have to say believe a fireball is a fireball and thus all resistances and such would apply as you would believe those things would effect it. So spell does not change element just gain an illusion sub type if that makes sense.
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Vincetie
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Kitsune (Illusionary Trickster)


Level 1
Kitsune Tails: A measurement of power both physically and magically for Kitsunes. You start with or grow three fox like tails. Each tail is prehensile and can wield light weapon like a dagger like if you had it in your hand. You grow an additional tail each level.

Level 2:
Fox Fire: A small ball of flame that is completely controllable by the Kitsune making them dificult to dodge if the enemy is visible to the Kitsune. When fox fire hits an enemy they take major damge from the impact and they can be lit on fire for two rounds. Each round they take minor damage regardless of how many fox fire balls hit them. The Kitsune Trickster can create one ball of fox fire per tail.

Level 3:
Kitsune Magic Conversion: All damaging spells are converted into illusions. The spell retains any elemental type or other feature as it would not be a convincing illusion if the spell changed in any significant way. IE a sucessfull illusionary fireball will be less effective against fire resitance just like the real spell. If the illusion is believed than the Kitsune has created an illusion so good that the enemy belives it strong enough that their body takes damage as if it hit with a real spell. However the illusionary spell does make base spells a bit more powerful. For Minor or Moderate damage spells it gives a minor damage boost. For Major damage spells it gives a moderate damage boost. However, if the illusion is seen through the enemy takes no damage.

Kitsune Illusionary Weapon Style: For each tail you posses you can make one attack per battle that is overlayed with an illusionary double. The illusion will come at a dfferent angle thant the actual attack making the enemy to chose between which attack to block. You can use more than one charge for a single attack which increases the number of illusionary attacks by one per charge.

Level 4:
Illusionary Doubles: You can create on illusionary copy of your self per tail. Once per battle you can swap positions with any of these illusionary doubles.

True Deception: Your illusions are exceedingly tricky to detect. People with lower skill levels in, arcana and concentration skills than the Kitsune will have an extremely difficult time detecting your illusion, even with the aide of detect magic/illusion. In addition once per day you can focus on one person you can make them fail one attempt to see through one illusion for three posts.

Level 5:
Illusion as Reality: For three posts any illusion you have cast becomes real. This is a draining ability and can often nearly deplete a mage of their mana.
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Aeyliea
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Level 1: Still fine.

Level 2: This ability is still unacceptable. Major damage with little way to avoid it, plus being set on fire and taking additional damage every round thereafter is not a level 2 ability. This is a level 5 ability as it is written. Also, there is no use limitation so it could be spammed. Regardless of level change or not, there needs to be a use limitation. This also needs to be nerfed if you wish it to stay at level 2.

Level 3: Kitsune Magic Conversion: This needs a use limiter. Also, there are better ways to word what this ability does.

Illusory Weapon Style: Fine, although this ability needs to be overhauled to be more clear in its wording of how it works.

Level 4: Illusionary Doubles: Fine.

True Deception: This is still unacceptable. Firstly, the slight/moderate/major modification needs to be used rather than vague words such as 'exceedingly'. Second, this is set up as a latent ability, and by current wording I am guessing a major level of dicciulty detecting your illusion spells? This doubles back to Kitsune Magic Conversion, as making the ability an auto-hit, especially if the activated portion of this ability is used. The latent portion needs to be quantified and probably toned down.

Level 5: I didn't really think much on this before, but could this be used to abuse illusionary abilities? What if you cast a Major Illusion and buried someone in mud for three rounds? Could this be used to instantly kill or defeat any opponent by allowing you or others to do things that are impossible in any other shop? If so, this is unacceptable as an ability and needs to be changed.
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redfiver
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Sigh I shoukd probably give up on this cPRC....illusions are just so hard to balance. I guess I will try a bit more. Also if you have problems with phrasing please give examples on what you consider correctly phrased. I can not fix things if I do not know what needs clarifying. I am not the best in phrasing things, so help is needed. Bellow I will list out thoughts and clarifications.

Level 2:..... appologies I think that was a typo I meant to write minor not major damage.... weird. You would think I would have caught that....

Kitsuen Magic Conversion:. I suppose I still have not explained this enough. This ability is not supposed to be a on use. It is an always on double edged sword. You can not cast damage without it being illusory. You are an illusionist period. The entire point is this class has a glarring weakness of those who break their illusion. If someone does they can't do anything except for maybe using the higher tier abilities. Which I supose is why I built True Deception like I did. It is to offset a rather glarring weakness that could leave one practically helpless. I can just leave the damage boost as a flat minor boost, so the description is easier as it is clear I am making them too complex. Or if you really insist I can make the damage boost say 3 times per fight, but really I think the cost of possibly doing 0 damage sort of balances out the damage boost. Sigh illusions are really too complex.

True Deception: okay I will work on fixing the problems. Probably go with moderately harder to see through, but if too strong minorly harder is acceptable. Please keep in mind this is meant as to protect the illusinist's only way to deal damage out side of physical combat. Also nothing here auto-hits. An illusionary fireball still acts like a fireball. You can dodge it or such and resistances still work.

Illusion as Reality: Okay yeah I can see abuse from leaving it open... I can start by adding in a no instant kill clause. I thought that was a sort of general rule on the site, but I can add it into the description properly. I will work on limiting how much it could cause to become real. Nothing beyond an epic level spell's capability or making some illusionary monster or soldiers real for a few rounds....Sigh this will be a hard description to find a balance for....

Ah well I will think on it. If you have advice or just want to shut this idea down please respond. Otherwise I will work on a new draft the best I can.
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Aeyliea
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The problem with the Magic conversion is thay it stacks with other abilities in this Prc. While it's true that it can be broken by seeing through the illusion, it's also true that this allows you to enhance any spell of any element and do so potentially more strongly than is available through other abilities, like inner fire or storm blessed. Couple that with a latent ability that increases your ability to call foul on people seeing through illusions/making them unable to see through them for three rounds, you have essentially negated the downside ofnthis ability. Not to mention your tier five ability which could also stack with this ability.

I wouldn't say a single use limited, but there needs to be a limiter to keep this ability from being mercilessly spammed, especially under other affects.

My comment about auto hitting was really about auto-proccing aka moderate damage boost because of magic conversion due to the fact that the target cannot see through the illusion.

When I get back to my computer I will try to clean up descriptions so they are clearer and see if they look good to you.
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redfiver
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I will be honest on the eliminates the weakness thing I don't agree. No matter what arguing for an illusion working is always an uphill battle. Even with a minor boost to difficulty there are far more ways to poke holes in illusions and point out flaws that would break them than there is defend them. At most I view having the difficulty stated as just getting your foot in the door step. If it is viewed as closer to an actual rule than perhaps I over compensated a bit. I will think on that.

Also much of this concern on the activated ability of True Deception is on 1v1 and that is sort of being phased out. We are moving towards the official events really being ST events and thus the ability to target one person isn't too strong. We have larger groups and the abilities get used more. Keep in mind it is not only one person, but also only a single spell per day for the activated portion of True Deception. Not once per battle or such. I force you to think that exclusionary wall is real and can run away that is it for the entire day. The ability works once and only once for a few posts.

As for the capstone well I probably need to rewrite it and add in limiters on what it can do to make it a more concrete ability. I can probably have it not stack with KCM if that is still a concern.

Also I just thought of this, but I do have to ask how much of a boost do you think a minor or even moderate damage boost is? When I describe a boost is is always a fraction of a true spell. A slightly more powerful damage. IE a minor spell given a minor boost is a little more powerful than a normal minor damage spell, but it certainly isn't a medium damage spell or the equivalent of two minor damage spells. Even if a minor spell had a major damage boost it still wouldn't equal a moderate damage spell, but it would be significantly higher than an average minor damage spell. Or are you enforcing it as a if it was an addition spell of minor/moderate/major damage? If so than I start seeing the concern more. If so we may be just have a problem in point of view here.
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redfiver
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Note to reviewer: I view a magic boost as a percentage of a spell. No mater how strong a bossted spell never matches the strength of the next tier of damage. IE minor boost is mayne 10% extra damage. A major boost does maybe 30% more. Honestly damage boosts are not well defined and probably need to be. Probably put that in sugestions soon.

Kitsune (Illusionary Trickster)


Level 1
Kitsune Tails: A measurement of power both physically and magically for Kitsunes. You start with or grow three fox like tails. Each tail is prehensile and can wield light weapon like a dagger like if you had it in your hand. You grow an additional tail each level.

Level 2:
Fox Fire: A small ball of flame that is completely controllable by the Kitsune making them dificult to dodge if the enemy is visible to the Kitsune. When fox fire hits an enemy they take minor damge from the impact and they can be lit on fire for two rounds. Each round they take minor damage regardless of how many fox fire balls hit them. The Kitsune Trickster can create one ball of fox fire per tail.

Level 3:
Kitsune Magic Conversion: All damaging spells are converted into illusions. However, you can no longer cast normal damaging spells. The spell retains any elemental type or other feature as it would not be a convincing illusion if the spell changed in any significant way. IE a sucessfull illusionary fireball will be less effective against fire resitance just like the real spell. If the illusion is believed than the Kitsune has created an illusion so good that the enemy belives it strong enough that their body takes damage as if it hit with a real spell. However the illusionary spell does make base spells a bit more powerful by providing a minor damage boost to spells.

Kitsune Illusionary Weapon Style: For each tail you posses you can make one attack per battle that is overlayed with an illusionary double. The illusion will come at a dfferent angle thant the actual attack making the enemy to chose between which attack to block. You can use more than one charge for a single attack which increases the number of illusionary attacks by one per charge.

Level 4:
Illusionary Doubles: You can create on illusionary copy of your self per tail. Once per battle you can swap positions with any of these illusionary doubles.

True Deception: Your illusions are exceedingly tricky to detect. People with lower skill levels in, arcana and concentration skills than the Kitsune will have an moderately difficult time detecting your illusion, even with the aide of detect magic/illusion. In addition once per day you can focus on one person you can make them fail one attempt to see through one illusion for three posts.

Level 5:
Illusion as Reality: For three posts any illusion you have cast becomes real. This is a draining ability and can often nearly deplete a mage of their mana. There are limitations though. You can change the terrain such as making a illusionary house real or say a deep pool of water, but you can not say burry a person alive who is standing inside an illusion or place them deep under water where they easily drown or other effects that would cause instant death. It also can only manifest spell damage up to a single epic level or create a single expert ranked fighter from an illusion. You could also have two journeman fighters or four adepts etc. This ability can not stack with kitsune magic conversion.
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Aeyliea
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My only contention with this continues to be your apex ability.

The problem with the ability is that because it is making illusion real, there are so, so many things you can do with it. I myself hadn't even thought of creating other creatures or fighters with it, which is absolutely not going to fly. It's like being a summoner without any rules; creating expert ranked fighter? Like all of their skills are expert? They can cast or not? You see where I am going with this? You could summon a dragon with expert skills and have it remotely nail someone with an epic spell. You could literally do so, so much with this ability that it is frightening to contemplate and it would need so many rules to regulate the more broken things it is capable of...

I would really like a second opinion on this whole PrC though, so aside from my above remarks will wait for another staff to voice an opinion beforenfurther commentingnby myself.
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redfiver
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Hmm... I see the point on the final ability.... just not quite sure how far to adjust it to make it work. Regardless I also would love additional input from other staff. If there are ideas for a better finnal tier ability feel free to suggest things. I am open to new ideas.....sigh illusions are hard to work with, but seems like progress is being made.
Edited by redfiver, Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:06 pm.
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