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[x]Demagogue
Topic Started: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:49 pm (728 Views)
Lady Eko
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Prerequisites Checklist:

  • Who am I? Ozan
  • Is this character active, at least a few weeks old and unlikely to be removed in the near future? Yes
  • Do I have at least 150 gold sitting on this character's account? Soon


Why should you accept this custom PrC concept?
This is a PrC that's about being a politician, which is something that's not really covered in Imy' systems beyond the Diplomacy skill. As Eko struggles in the cutthroat Balefire House of Lords, she'll need to apply her diplomatic skills in increasingly complex and creative ways in order to survive.



Demagogue
Custom PrC: Lady Eko Kinslayer

Wars can be fought with more than siege engines and spears. Given the right tools, a visionary can use words, not weapons, to bring their enemies to their knees. The world's movers and shakers can inspire their allies, manipulate their peers, and throw their enemies off their game. They don't just survive in the world of politics; they dominate.

These abilities are non-magical and are often mind-affecting effects.

Prerequisites

  • Skill: Journeyman Diplomacy
  • Special: Must be in a position of leadership and influence. Business owner, gang leader, political figure, etc.


<This is where your pricing table will go.>

Level One

  • Unpopular Opinion: You openly condemn a single target in public. For the next 24 hours, everyone who can see your target will feel deep-seated disdain for them. Even if they've never met your victim before, people will unconsciously come up with a reason to dislike them: he looks sketchy, her face looks punchable, I don't like how he's giving me the eye, etc. Your target loses all social maneuverability; merchants will refuse to do business with your target, innkeepers won't give them a room, law enforcement will keep careful eye on them, and thugs will pick fights with them. Because Unpopular Opinion's effects are unconscious, the target cannot change other people's opinions using emotion-altering magic or any level of the Diplomacy skill below Master. The target's closest friends are immune to this ability.

  • Work the Room: Even if you don't have a chance to speak, you can still exert influence through sheer force of charisma. By changing your body language, you can make the people around you instinctively feel like you're in charge and that they can trust you even if they have no rational basis for thinking that way. Alternatively, you can make them feel deeply intimidated by your presence. Both strategies will make everyone around you unable to impulsively or recklessly attack you. Those planning premeditated attacks against you will quickly grow worried about their chances of success and might even reconsider. People who have already formed an opinion of you are much more difficult to sway (i.e. someone who already hates you will probably never trust you unless you give them a reason to have second thoughts, though intimidation will still work on them).


Level Two

  • Digging Up Dirt: You heard through the grapevine about some of the aces your enemy has up their sleeve. Choose one of the following types of strengths to learn about your target:


    • Physical: You learned about your opponent's physical advantages. Your character gains an understanding of up to 10 skills and feats the target possesses. You also understand which skill they are most proficient with.

    • Arcane: You learned about your opponent's magical prowess. Your character gains an understanding of up to 5 spells the target possesses, and what the effects of those spells are.

    • Preternatural: You learned about how your opponent pushes the limit of human possibility. Your character gains an understanding of 1 Prestige Class the target possesses. Your character knows the basic capabilities of someone with those abilities (e.g. a Raging Berserker uses emotion-fueled physical fighting), but they do not learn anything about specific abilities.

    Digging Up Dirt can be used once per encounter with a single person. An encounter could involve a fight, but does not have to. This ability takes time to bear results. The knowledge gleaned through this ability is persistent; you will not lose it after the fight, though it might become obsolete over time. It follows that the more often you fight a particular enemy, the more dirt you can dig up about them.


Level Three

  • Anyone Can Be Bought: This ability cannot be used in a one-on-one fight. By offering an impressive bribe, idealistic speech or pragmatic exchange, you can convince one of your enemies to join your side for the rest of the fight. This ability cannot cause a target to completely betray their own ideals or motivations, so it is best used against more unscrupulous targets such as hired help. Since this ability caters to the specific conscious motivations of the target, it does not count as a mind-affecting effect for the purposes of immunities. Each additional level in the Demagogue PrC increases the number of enemies you can bring to your side by 1. Unless very weak-willed, Player Characters affected by this ability are slowed by indecision for 2 posts rather than outright changing sides.


Level Four

  • Snaketongue: You weave such convincing lies that you can actually persuade an enemy that they are about to die. The effects of this ability are slightly different depending on whether it is used inside or out of combat. In combat, you convince your enemy that their death is imminent. They will feel torturous psychosomatic pain, intense panic, and will be badly demoralized for 1 post. Outside of combat, Snaketongue imparts strong paranoia on the target. For the next 24 hours they will suspect that they could be attacked at any moment, creating anxiety so strong that they cannot sleep, eat, think rationally, etc. This ability works even if the target consciously does not fear death, except in very extreme cases (e.g. people who are actively trying to die).


Level Five

  • Inciting Propaganda: You deliver a speech to the masses, whether they be your own followers or a crowd of strangers. Your words whip every non-enemy who can hear you into a frenzy, inspiring them to act on behalf of whatever cause you describe -- and with preternatural effectiveness and organization. Adrenaline courses through their veins, making them all slightly stronger, faster, slower to tire and more resistant to pain. This ability can also be used to trigger a mass panic if your speech is fear-mongering. Riots that form from this ability are more organized than normal, often creating roving packs of people with improvised weapons that attack, loot, and act out of their own prerogative (using your original inciting propaganda as a basic guide for their actions). This ability lasts for 3 combat posts.

  • I Own This Battlefield: Your word is law. You declare your supremacy to the fight at hand and set down one injunction against your enemies. If anyone violates your injunction, they will take constant, moderate psionic damage over time until their actions fall back in line. I Own This Battlefield lasts until the end of the fight. This ability cannot be triggered near the beginning of a fight.

    Choose one of the following injunctions to apply:

    • Trespassing: Your enemies are not permitted to utilize beneficial features of the terrain or environment including high ground, cover, sniper's perches and improvised weapons.

    • Criminal Contempt: Your enemies are not permitted to initiate attacks. They can only fight defensively or counterattack.

    • Gag Order: Your enemies are not permitted to speak or otherwise communicate to one another. This also condemns spellcasting without the Silent Spell feat.

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Seele
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  • Unpopular Opinion: Hilarious.
  • Work the Room: Is this latent or not? Basically, does the Demagogue have to consciously make people feel they're in charge/scary, or is it always in effect? I would prefer this to be non-latent, I think. There's a good chance the Demagogue would use it whenever they're in a crowd anyway or around others, but I see no reason why it would be effective when they let their guard down, as it would be if it was latent.
  • Digging Up Dirt: This is cool, but it does kind of stray into meta-gamey territory. However, I think it's fine, since it does take time instead of being immediate knowledge. I guess my next question is how much time? Like, by the end of that topic, or just before the next encounter? Also, who picks the skills/spells/PrCs? I'm assuming the Demagogue, but the target picking would be interesting too. Hmm.
  • Anyone Can Be Bought: Fine.
  • Snaketongue: Pretty cool, also seems fine.
  • Inciting Propaganda: Will this effect RPers? Can the crowd turn on the instigator? In an RP context, does the Demagogue get control of the mob as if they were a familiar or servant, or can either player write their actions so long as they stay within the constraints of the ability?
  • I Own This Battlefield: A very good apex ability. Mild psionic pain is a bearable drawback, so none of these become OP. I see no reason why you couldn't slap one of these down at the beginning of a fight, honestly.

  • Overall Thoughts: This is pretty excellent as is. It lacks offensive oomph, but it's also not about that, so I don't think that's an issue. It's not too far off from being ready, I'd just like to hear your input on some of my questions and concerns, maybe a little tweaking.
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Iris
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I'm with Seele. >_> Then again, I don't see any actual problems with this.

Digging up Dirt - It isn't metagamey in a worrisome way because it doesn't pry into your opponent's history. I would say the Demagogue should be able to pick, otherwise the ability could very well be rendered useless. The opponent could pick a level 1 PrC, starting/very weak/already used spells, and skills/feats that are actively in-use and are obvious(high rank swordsmanship etc).

I Own This Battlefield - It would be nice if you could change the effects every so often. It'd make you more likely to use the whole roster, rather than just the prevent offensive actions one.
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Lady Eko
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Changelog:
- Made Work the Room an activated ability.
- Digging Up Dirt: Added an estimated time that it takes for the ability to yield information.
- Inciting Propaganda: Clarified that PCs are immune to this ability, the crowd cannot turn on the instigator unless Inciting Propaganda is used by a different Demagogue, and the instigator does not have direct control over the mob but can make suggestions.
- I Own This Battlefield: Removed restrictions related to time of casting. Allowed the caster to change the injunction as time goes on, but only one injunction can be active at a time.

If you guys think this is close to being ready, I'd like if you could suggest some prices for levels?



Demagogue
Custom PrC: Lady Eko Kinslayer

Wars can be fought with more than siege engines and spears. Given the right tools, a visionary can use words, not weapons, to bring their enemies to their knees. The world's movers and shakers can inspire their allies, manipulate their peers, and throw their enemies off their game. They don't just survive in the world of politics; they dominate.

These abilities are non-magical and are often mind-affecting effects.

Prerequisites

  • Skill: Journeyman Diplomacy
  • Special: Must be in a position of leadership and influence. Business owner, gang leader, political figure, etc.


<This is where your pricing table will go.>

Level One

  • Unpopular Opinion: You openly condemn a single target in public. For the next 24 hours, everyone who can see your target will feel deep-seated disdain for them. Even if they've never met your victim before, people will unconsciously come up with a reason to dislike them: he looks sketchy, her face looks punchable, I don't like how he's giving me the eye, etc. Your target loses all social maneuverability; merchants will refuse to do business with your target, innkeepers won't give them a room, law enforcement will keep careful eye on them, and thugs will pick fights with them. Because Unpopular Opinion's effects are unconscious, the target cannot change other people's opinions using emotion-altering magic or any level of the Diplomacy skill below Master. The target's closest friends are immune to this ability.

  • Work the Room: Even if you don't have a chance to speak, you can still exert influence through sheer force of charisma. By intentionally changing your body language and keeping your guard up, you can make the people around you instinctively feel like you're in charge and that they can trust you even if they have no rational basis for thinking that way. Alternatively, you can make them feel deeply intimidated by your presence. Both strategies will make everyone around you unable to impulsively or recklessly attack you. Those planning premeditated attacks against you will quickly grow worried about their chances of success and might even reconsider. People who have already formed an opinion of you are much more difficult to sway (i.e. someone who already hates you will probably never trust you unless you give them a reason to have second thoughts, though intimidation will still work on them).


Level Two

  • Digging Up Dirt: You heard through the grapevine about some of the aces your enemy has up their sleeve. Choose one of the following types of strengths to learn about your target:


    • Physical: You learned about your opponent's physical advantages. Your character gains an understanding of up to 10 skills or feats the target possesses. You also understand which skill they are most proficient with.

    • Arcane: You learned about your opponent's magical prowess. Your character gains an understanding of up to 5 spells the target possesses, and what the effects of those spells are.

    • Preternatural: You learned about how your opponent pushes the limit of human possibility. Your character gains an understanding of 1 Prestige Class the target possesses. Your character knows the basic capabilities of someone with those abilities (e.g. a Raging Berserker uses emotion-fueled physical fighting), but they do not learn anything about specific abilities.

    Digging Up Dirt can be used once per encounter with a single person. An encounter could involve a fight, but does not have to. This ability takes time to bear results (2 posts or 15 minutes, whichever is shorter). The knowledge gleaned through this ability is persistent; you will not lose it after the fight, though it might become obsolete over time. It follows that the more often you fight a particular enemy, the more dirt you can dig up about them.


Level Three

  • Anyone Can Be Bought: This ability cannot be used in a one-on-one fight. By offering an impressive bribe, idealistic speech or pragmatic exchange, you can convince one of your enemies to join your side for the rest of the fight. This ability cannot cause a target to completely betray their own ideals or motivations, so it is best used against more unscrupulous targets such as hired help. Since this ability caters to the specific conscious motivations of the target, it does not count as a mind-affecting effect for the purposes of immunities. Each additional level in the Demagogue PrC increases the number of enemies you can bring to your side by 1. Unless very weak-willed, Player Characters affected by this ability are slowed by indecision for 2 posts rather than outright changing sides.


Level Four

  • Snaketongue: You weave such convincing lies that you can actually persuade an enemy that they are about to die. The effects of this ability are slightly different depending on whether it is used inside or out of combat. In combat, you convince your enemy that their death is imminent. They will feel torturous psychosomatic pain, intense panic, and will be badly demoralized for 1 post. Outside of combat, Snaketongue imparts strong paranoia on the target. For the next 24 hours they will suspect that they could be attacked at any moment, creating anxiety so strong that they cannot sleep, eat, think rationally, etc. This ability works even if the target consciously does not fear death, except in very extreme cases (e.g. people who are actively trying to die).


Level Five

  • Inciting Propaganda: You deliver a speech to the masses, whether they be your own followers or a crowd of strangers. Your words whip every non-enemy NPC who can hear you into a frenzy, inspiring them to act on behalf of whatever cause you describe -- and with preternatural effectiveness and organization. Adrenaline courses through their veins, making them all slightly stronger, faster, slower to tire and more resistant to pain. This ability can also be used to trigger a mass panic if your speech is fear-mongering. Riots that form from this ability are more organized than normal, often creating roving packs of people with improvised weapons that attack, loot, and act out of their own prerogative (using your original inciting propaganda as a basic guide for their actions). The mob cannot be directly controlled, but will take suggestions from you. The mob can only turn on you if an enemy Demagogue uses Inciting Propaganda, or a similar ability such as the Berserk spell, successfully. This ability lasts for 3 combat posts.

  • I Own This Battlefield: Your word is law. You declare your supremacy to the fight at hand and set down an injunction against your enemies. If anyone violates your injunction, they will take constant, moderate psionic damage over time until their actions fall back in line. You can change the active injunction freely over the course of the fight, but only one injunction may be active at a time. I Own This Battlefield lasts until the end of the fight.

    Choose one of the following injunctions to apply at a time:

    • Trespassing: Your enemies are not permitted to utilize beneficial features of the terrain or environment including high ground, cover, sniper's perches and improvised weapons.

    • Criminal Contempt: Your enemies are not permitted to initiate attacks. They can only fight defensively or counterattack.

    • Gag Order: Your enemies are not permitted to speak or otherwise communicate to one another. This also condemns spellcasting without the Silent Spell feat.

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Leyanni[Adm]
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I approve of this. Now someone else needs to look at it and make comments so the PrC can be finalized and priced.
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Taiaka
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Level1:

Unpopular Opinion: Fine

Work the Room: Personally, I'm not comfortable forcing PCs to treat your charrie a certain way because of body language and charisma. You give no qualifiers here except prior knowledge of your character (i.e. a skill in Concentration, resistances to mind affecting abilities, a higher skill level in Diplomacy, etc.). You're pretty much demanding that a PC treat your character how you deem fit without any chance to mitigate the effects.

Level 2:

Digging Up the Dirt: Is metagaming. You're bringing OOC knowledge into the IC world. I understand this this is a result of snooping allies, and therefore more plausible, but it is still metagaming no matter how you slice it. Couple this ability with your I Own the Battlefield stipulations, and you can effectively shut down any opponent. Which would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that you will be bringing OOC knowledge in game to achieve this.

I am however, open to amend this ability to make it more fair and balanced (even though it is still metagaming). For Physical, I would suggest the Demagogue be made aware of any MASTER skills your target may possess. Keeping with the theme, master skills are something that would readily be talked about through rumor and gossip- not your foe's novice tracking or apprentice athletics. If your foe has no master skills, well, that's still useful info.

For Arcane, how about any EPIC spells that your enemy possesses? And for Preternatural- that's okay I guess.

Level 3:

Anyone Can Be Bought: Mostly fine, though slowing a PC by indecision (again, going back to forcing players to act a certain way around a Demagogue) should have a Concentration caveat or something since you defined it as not the same as other mind-affecting skills/spells. This ability may in fact enrage an opponent instead of slowing them with indecision- it's really not up to you to decide (since this is not a physical ability in which case one could clearly argue that X effect would have Y result).

Level 4:

Snaketongue: What if a PC is not afraid of dying? What if that is part of their creative theme? I know you say that shouldn't matter in the description, but I think it truly does. Again, you are forcing a PC to react to a Demagogue in a certain way. Someone with Master concentration and various immunities to demoralizing effects would shake this off, yah? If that's the case, then ok.

Level 5:

Inciting Propaganda: Fine

I Own the Battlefield: I only worry about this ability when used in conjunction with how Digging Up the Dirt is now. I can see this ability being extremely devious (like inciting a mob with Propaganda and then say that your opponent cannot initiate attacks hehe). It's very spiteful too- "act how I tell you to, or suffer the consequences", you have no limits as to how many times you can switch the injunctions around, and it is instantaneously changed at will. So you quite literally have the ability to hard counter any enemy's tactics at any time. I see the archer on the tower, I call Trespassing. Next round, I see he got down from the tower, so I call Criminal Contempt. Oh, archer is hiding behind cover since he couldn't attack- I call Trespassing again. That's no fun.


I'm pretty sure my opinions on this cPrC are not going to be popular, but you know me, I say what I say <.< I don't think this is bad or anything, in fact I find it really creative! I just have a lot of reservations about things that can be seen as metagamey or power-playing. So don't hate me!
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Lady Eko
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I could care less about PvP in this context, so let's just throw that out of the picture completely. I might sound like I'm contradicting myself, but have you seen how much I actually work against other PCs in my topics? I'm pretty sick of balancing for PvP and this one is especially tough because of what its schtick is. No one likes to be told how to react or behave, which is completely fair -- I hate it too.

Hopefully this will be enough to push this cPrC through so I can work on something I like more. I may need to give it a final polishing after I receive consensus on prices because so many of the ability descriptions are bloated as hell.

Changes:
- Work the Room only affects NPCs.
- Digging up Dirt: Master skills, Epic spells, PrCs.
- Anyone Can Be bought only affects NPCs.
- Snaketongue only affects NPCs.
- I Own this Battlefield only affects NPCs.



Demagogue
Custom PrC: Lady Eko Kinslayer

Wars can be fought with more than siege engines and spears. Given the right tools, a visionary can use words, not weapons, to bring their enemies to their knees. The world's movers and shakers can inspire their allies, manipulate their peers, and throw their enemies off their game. They don't just survive in the world of politics; they dominate.

These abilities are non-magical and are often mind-affecting effects.

Prerequisites

  • Skill: Journeyman Diplomacy
  • Special: Must be in a position of leadership and influence. Business owner, gang leader, political figure, etc.


<This is where your pricing table will go.>

Level One

  • Unpopular Opinion: You openly condemn a single target in public. For the next 24 hours, everyone who can see your target will feel deep-seated disdain for them. Even if they've never met your victim before, people will unconsciously come up with a reason to dislike them: he looks sketchy, her face looks punchable, I don't like how he's giving me the eye, etc. Your target loses all social maneuverability; merchants will refuse to do business with your target, innkeepers won't give them a room, law enforcement will keep careful eye on them, and thugs will pick fights with them. Because Unpopular Opinion's effects are unconscious, the target cannot change other people's opinions using emotion-altering magic or any level of the Diplomacy skill below Master. The target's closest friends are immune to this ability.

  • Work the Room: Player Characters are immune to this ability. Even if you don't have a chance to speak, you can still exert influence through sheer force of charisma. By intentionally changing your body language and keeping your guard up, you can make the people around you instinctively feel like you're in charge and that they can trust you even if they have no rational basis for thinking that way. Alternatively, you can make them feel deeply intimidated by your presence. Both strategies will make everyone around you unable to impulsively or recklessly attack you. Those planning premeditated attacks against you will quickly grow worried about their chances of success and might even reconsider. People who have already formed an opinion of you are much more difficult to sway (i.e. someone who already hates you will probably never trust you unless you give them a reason to have second thoughts, though intimidation will still work on them).


Level Two

  • Digging Up Dirt: You heard through the grapevine about some of the aces your enemy has up their sleeve. Choose one of the following types of strengths to learn about your target:


    • Physical: You learned about your opponent's physical advantages. Your character gains an understanding of what the target's Master-level skills are.

    • Arcane: You learned about your opponent's magical prowess. Your character gains an understanding of up to 5 epic spells the target possesses.

    • Preternatural: You learned about how your opponent pushes the limit of human possibility. Your character gains an understanding of 1 Prestige Class the target possesses.

    Digging Up Dirt can be used once per encounter with a single person. An encounter could involve a fight, but does not have to. This ability takes time to bear results (2 posts or 15 minutes, whichever is shorter). The knowledge gleaned through this ability is persistent; you will not lose it after the fight, though it might become obsolete over time. It follows that the more often you fight a particular enemy, the more dirt you can dig up about them.


Level Three

  • Anyone Can Be Bought: Player Characters are immune to this ability. This ability cannot be used in a one-on-one fight. By offering an impressive bribe, idealistic speech or pragmatic exchange, you can convince one of your enemies to join your side for the rest of the fight. This ability cannot cause a target to completely betray their own ideals or motivations, so it is best used against more unscrupulous targets such as hired help. Since this ability caters to the specific conscious motivations of the target, it does not count as a mind-affecting effect for the purposes of immunities. Each additional level in the Demagogue PrC increases the number of enemies you can bring to your side by 1.


Level Four

  • Snaketongue: Player Characters are immune to this ability. You weave such convincing lies that you can actually persuade an enemy that they are about to die. The effects of this ability are slightly different depending on whether it is used inside or out of combat. In combat, you convince your enemy that their death is imminent. They will feel torturous psychosomatic pain, intense panic, and will be badly demoralized for 1 post. Outside of combat, Snaketongue imparts strong paranoia on the target. For the next 24 hours they will suspect that they could be attacked at any moment, creating anxiety so strong that they cannot sleep, eat, think rationally, etc. This ability works even if the target consciously does not fear death, except in very extreme cases (e.g. people who are actively trying to die).


Level Five

  • Inciting Propaganda: You deliver a speech to the masses, whether they be your own followers or a crowd of strangers. Your words whip every non-enemy NPC who can hear you into a frenzy, inspiring them to act on behalf of whatever cause you describe -- and with preternatural effectiveness and organization. Adrenaline courses through their veins, making them all slightly stronger, faster, slower to tire and more resistant to pain. This ability can also be used to trigger a mass panic if your speech is fear-mongering. Riots that form from this ability are more organized than normal, often creating roving packs of people with improvised weapons that attack, loot, and act out of their own prerogative (using your original inciting propaganda as a basic guide for their actions). The mob cannot be directly controlled, but will take suggestions from you. The mob can only turn on you if an enemy Demagogue uses Inciting Propaganda, or a similar ability such as the Berserk spell, successfully. This ability lasts for 3 combat posts.

  • I Own This Battlefield: Player Characters are immune to this ability. Your word is law. You declare your supremacy to the fight at hand and set down an injunction against your enemies. If anyone violates your injunction, they will take constant, moderate psionic damage over time until their actions fall back in line. You can change the active injunction freely over the course of the fight, but only one injunction may be active at a time. I Own This Battlefield lasts until the end of the fight.

    Choose one of the following injunctions to apply at a time:

    • Trespassing: Your enemies are not permitted to utilize beneficial features of the terrain or environment including high ground, cover, sniper's perches and improvised weapons.

    • Criminal Contempt: Your enemies are not permitted to initiate attacks. They can only fight defensively or counterattack.

    • Gag Order: Your enemies are not permitted to speak or otherwise communicate to one another. This also condemns spellcasting without the Silent Spell feat.

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Leyanni[Adm]
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This PrC is really weak now, unfortunately. I would have posted this earlier in the morning, but I had to get to work. So, keep that in mind as you read ahead.

Work The Room
The old version was okay because it was limited to effects that you could find in spells. This is basically a physical variant of a mental spell, and I can't really see a problem with that. If there is a problem with that, it should have come up before we finalized what you can do with magic.

For example, the Berserk spell:

Causes a target's mind to become clouded with pure anger and hate, forcing them to act aggressively. They can no longer act defensively and have little regard for their personal safety. They can still tell friend from foe. Effects last for 3 posts.

Dampen:

Suppresses a specific emotion felt by the target, such as reducing their anger or sadness. This spell's effects are less pronounced if multiple targets are chosen at once.

Work The Room isn't nearly as powerful as mental magic, all things considered.

Digging Up Dirt
Discovering details on someone's master skills doesn't qualify as "metagaming" to me, as most characters with master skill should be able to pick up their opponent's skill based on stance/movements alone. That's what being a "master" is. With that in mind, figuring out other stuff via a network of informants doesn't seem so bad.

Normal spells? Well, if someone has several epic spells all from the same element, a character could easily intuit that they've got the rest of the kaboodle, particularly if they have Master in Knowledge:Arcana.

Metagaming in a limited aspect, like this, is fine. If someone is a poor tracker, that could come up. If someone is a poor swordfighter, that would certainly come up. That is just as valuable information as anything else.

Anyone Can Be Bought
Slowed by indecision was fine. We've got stuff that hits reliably, does damage and slows severely. This isn't very powerful, the only thing is it is again mental magic made into a physical ability.

Snaketongue
This could be easily improved(and dodge the "fear death" problem) by loosening it up to "losing a loved one/property". There are also existing ways to counter this ability via pain mitigation found in PrCs and the tattoo shop. I'm not sure we need to have Master Concentration literally hard-counter a PrC by design.

I Own This Battlefield
Add a cooldown period before the area can be changed and it is more than fine. Even as it was, it was fine - the defensive one was actually the weakest, given you could preemptively gut someone before their attack because it just says they cannot initiate combat. After a fight begins, they are actually free to attack under the basis of defending themselves(being in a life or death situation)/counter attacking until their opponent flees. Overall, this wasn't very strong in the first place and I guess it could have needed a mild nerf.
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Taiaka
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The intention of my review was not to have this cPrC weakened to this level.

Yet, I did indeed take spells into account when I founded my opinions.

Spells are different in the following ways: A.) There are a million and one counters for spells- enchantments, skills, items, other spells- there are ways to counter spells. B.) Spells are worded using big, broad strokes.

Berserk for example, uses loose language like 'act aggressively'. And Dampen is wide open for personal interpretation. These mental spells are powerful only so far since they can be nullified, cancelled or resisted. My concern was that none of Demagogue's abilities that range into 'forcing a PC to act a certain way' had outs (like Concentration, or possessing a higher level of Diplomacy)- my concern was never how powerful they were.

Digging Up the Dirt is definition meta-gaming. I cannot think of another ability, feat or spell on this board that brings such a vast amount of OOC knowledge in game. Yes, I agree it is limited, but meta-gaming is still meta-gaming. Gleaning info about a PC though RP is not meta-gaming if the PC shows these things to you; one cannot assume that a PC will act, move, or carry themselves according to what skills they possess- to assume as much and bring it into the game is meta-gaming. But you make a good point- not only master skills would be beneficial to know. Learning your foe is awful at tracking is very beneficial.

I mean, you could keep your original draft of Digging Up the Dirt if you simply want to put a sentence saying that you must get your partner's permission to use the ability. No joke! We talk to the people we play with and I'm sure that people wouldn't have a problem if they give their consent. This is also true for some of the other abilities that now say that PCs are immune to the effects. Just get permission. That wouldn't be a problem, people trust Oz. But this cPrC will get released and can be purchased after it is done, so while you may not concerned about the PvP ramifications, I am because it will not be exclusively yours. Never were my comments a judgment on your character.

Anyone Can Be Bought can have this disclaimer too- especially since you could be dealing with other people's NPCs.

My concern with Snaketoungue is still power-playing though, pain mitigation counters aside. Losing a loved one or property is not any better than a deep seeded unconscious fear of death. It needs broader strokes than that, OR! another 'you must get permission' to use it.

These effects are FUN! Real talk. I don't think too many people would have a problem or even see it as I do as being forced to act a certain way. It would be fun to play with a Demagogue who uses these abilities. But we can't assume everyone would feel the same way- especially if some of these abilities admittedly stray into the realms of meta-gaming and power-playing. I really don't think the abilities should be slapped with a' PCs are immune' tag- it waters this cPrC down to such a level where I could achieve these effects without buying this PrC by simply upping my diplomacy- I don't need Demagogue to start a riot or lie convincingly. And while I may have vied for skill qualifiers in my last review (like for Anyone Can be Bought or Snaketoungue), I really think the best way to go without making this weak beyond repair is to just add a line about getting permission.
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Aeyliea
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Unpopular Opinion: Fine.

Work the Room: I think it would be fine to include PC's in this if, as Tai has mentioned, you either need permission first OR you could resist this ability with Concentration. I think Concentration would probably be the best skill. I'd say Apprentice or Novice level to resist it if you want it to go that route? Otherwise this ability is....well, pretty weak if it only effect NPC's.

Digging Up Dirt: Me, personally, would rather see the permission needed thing. Also, I think generalizing information found would be better. So-and-so is really good at swordsmanship, or sucks at tracking, instead of actual skill levels. I know its really, really trite as far as difference is concerned, but on the RP side it makes sense that that kind of wording would be used. I also think that it should just be master skills, but any skill.

For spells, maybe one spell that is given a name and four other spells that you do not know which, but do know the elements for? Or maybe a couple you know, and a few you don't? And again, can be epic, regular, or whatever.

For the PrC thing: Sure, why not. Understanding so-and-so is a Storm Kindler is fine by me.

Overall ,the limitation on time is fine, but this ability - like some of the spells I can't think of the name for but know exist - needs to have prior-auth with PCs!

Anyone Can Be Bought: The previous varient, slowed by indecision, was fine.

Snaketongue: Another of those deals where a viable counter would make it work, or else broadening the aspect of fear or unease to include any number of things. Loved ones and property sounds good, as does fear of death. I imagine it'd be something a Demagogue would need to know a bit about their target beforehand to accurately use? OR - another Needs Permission line.

Inciting Propaganda: Fine. Neat idea, too lol

I Own This Battlefield: Make it affect PC's. I can't see this ability being overpower against anyone, only adding a slight edge if exploited correctly. I do have a question though: How large an area does this effect? Is it effective against anyone engaged against a Demagogue, regardless of distance, or do they need to be close?

....

Sorry to repeat a lot of what has been said above. To be honest, I thought the original version was pretty OK , but hadn't considered it in the light of forcing PC's into certain actions without checks. I really don't think the removal of PC effectiveness here was necessary, just some mild retooling to make it work on PCs and give them an out, or option, or whatever.
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Lady Eko
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I hate to do this to you guys -- you all have been really generous taking the time to look at this PrC so closely -- but I would like to cancel this request for now and put Demagogue on hold. I find this particular review process to be really frustrating because we can't seem to come to an agreement. A lot of the requested changes have or will remove the teeth from this PrC and I'm starting to wonder if any of this is worth it. I also am not as passionate about this cPrC concept as I was when I first posted it.

Thank you for helping with this review nonetheless, all of you, and I hope to revisit Demagogue at some point in the future so that your efforts weren't in vain. In the meantime I'd like to free up a slot so I can work on one of the two cPrCs that I'm very interested in and think will be more successful under review (because they have a more traditional and less inherently contentious subject matter).
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¤Ozan[Adm]
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Custom PrC canceled.
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